Posts: 0
Threads: 0
Joined: Feb 2019
lex icon wrote:
“The first truth, (about awareness) he said, was that our familiarity with the world we perceive compels us to believe that we are surrounded by objects, existing by themselves and as themselves, just as we perceive them, whereas, in fact, there is no world of objects, but a universe of eagles emanations.” FFW
""There is a lot in this small paragraph. Now I am not asking anyone to believe what Don Juan is saying here, I do not care two hoots whether you believe it or not. What I do care about is that it is understood. That the man’s point of view has been appreciated. Now you might believe you are surrounded by this world of individual objects and nothing can change what appears so self evident. Well fine but is it possible to just for the sake of dialogue to suspend that determination while we explore what DJ is talking about? I mean what did the man experience that led him to make such a radical statement.""
He experienced the emanations. What he is saying here is that instead of a world of objects there is a world of emanations. That IS the experience. When the emanations are seen/experienced the world of matter pales to insignificance. It is not real. Gopi Krishna said something similar in Kundalini, the Evolutionary Energy in Man. He said that he "saw the earth as a grain of sand on an ocean of energy."
""What is unfortunate, in my opinion, in DJ’s words above, is when he tags on that last bit, “but a universe of eagles emanations.” You see we need more space to contemplate the no objects before jumping to what I believe is a level of metaphysical interpretation, “eagles emanations”.""
There you go getting spooky again. lol. Eagle's Emanations are just a word he used to describe something he actually saw/experienced. You are discussing a reality and you want to make it "metaphysical." And therefore you think it needs to be interpreted.
You are wanting to understand this from the bottom up. I have learned that it doesn't work that way. You have an experience first. Then you recognise that that particular experience was being described.
Don Juan's great bands of emanations, Jacob's ladder, Joseph's coat of many colors all describe the same experience.
I had that experience. But it was not until I did that I recognised the various descriptions. All of the elements of those descriptions fit exactly.
""DJ makes the comment above that when we are “compelled” to believe we are surrounded by objects, these objects appear to exist “by themselves and as themselves”. Now that is a very precise statement. If we can unravel this one statement the internal dialogue will cease and its world will collapse.""
Which they do not of course. They are products of the real. Which could not exist without or apart from the real. We are at the lowest rung of that ladder. This world of matter with all of it's objects is the shadow pointing back toward the real.
Wow an energetic wave just passed and staggered me for a moment and I quite literally had to go evacuate my bowels lol. An omen perhaps?
The world is agreeing with you.
Posts: 0
Threads: 0
Joined: Feb 2019
lex icon wrote:
""Visions revelations etc often point point to something more especially when it is a revelation of something unknown which then becomes known expanding one’s personal awareness. And they very often point to something more, beyond this.""
Yes, I'm talking about real visions not halucinations.
""However we cannot concluded from this that such a statement concerns the unknowable. DJ said we can glimpse the unknowable but thought that the task was to separate it from the unknown.
So we have the finite, definable known and the infinite unknown that expands the known through conscious contact. So how do we even “know” there is an unknowable? How do we “glimpse” the unknowable.""
There is, in the Qabala, the highest Sephirah on the tree of life, which if a person becomes "one with" it is said he will unmanifest.
(My teacher said this happened to him while going through a spontaneous awakening of the Kundalini. He doesn't remember anything about it except a blinding light and waking up hours later in another room in his house.)
Beyond that the unknowable, the Limitless Light.
Don Juan says there is an unknowable.
I, myself had an experience fully conscious that I brought very little back from. I just watched it escape from my mind.
I don't doubt there is an Unknowable.
So, how do we glimpse the unknowable?
The Point meditation.
Posts: 0
Threads: 0
Joined: Feb 2019
Could John as best as he could with words be describing a hologram here ?
From The Aprocryphon of John
Straightway, while I was contemplating theses things, behold the heavens opened and the whole creation which is below heaven shone, and the world was shaken. 2 I was afraid, and behold I saw in the light an old man. And he changed his likeness (again) becoming like a servant. There was not a plurality before me, but there was a likeness with multiple forms in the light, and the likeness had three forms.
He said to me, "John, John, why do you doubt, or why are you afraid? You are not unfamiliar with this image, are you?- that is, do not be timid! - I am the one who is with you always. I am the Father, I am the Mother, I am the Son. I am the undefiled and incorruptible one. Now I have come to teach you what is and what is to come to pass, that you may know the things which are not revealed and those which are revealed, and to teach you concerning the unwavering race of the perfect Man. Now, therefore, lift up your face, that you may receive the things that I shall teach you today, and may tell them to your fellow spirits who are from the unwavering race of the perfect Man."
Posts: 0
Threads: 0
Joined: Feb 2019
JESUS the EAGLE
"And our sister Sophia is she who came down in innocence in order to rectify her deficiency. Therefore she was called Life, which is the mother of the living, by the foreknowledge of the sovereignty of heaven. And through her they have tasted the perfect Knowledge. I appeared in the form of an eagle on the tree of knowledge, which is the Epinoia from the foreknowledge of the pure light, that I might teach and awaken them out of the depth of sleep. For they were both in a fallen state and they recognized their nakedness. The Epinoia appeared to them as a light and she awakened their thinking."
I am suggesting the Eagle's enamations are apparent in the gnostic scriptures. Jesus is the Eagle present on the tree of knowledge!
Posts: 0
Threads: 0
Joined: Feb 2019
ninth octave wrote:
Could John as best as he could with words be describing a hologram here ?
Insofar as we were using that term as an analogy, that is my understanding. Everything that is/was experienced at any level would be a projection of the Source. And all is light. I would say yes.
From The Aprocryphon of John
I haven't read this book but some things look familiar from some personal experiences and bible and Don Juan books.
Straightway, while I was contemplating theses things, behold the heavens opened and the whole creation which is below heaven shone, and the world was shaken.
I have seen and have read of everything glowing with it's own light. In fact from what I've seen beyond this physical world, everything is made of light.
2 I was afraid, and behold I saw in the light an old man. And he changed his likeness (again) becoming like a servant. There was not a plurality before me, but there was a likeness with multiple forms in the light, and the likeness had three forms.
Human beings are not what we believe they are. Not what they appear to be. Maybe not only what they appear to be would be a better way to put it. I have seen faces change as if the different layers were superimposed one upon another. Not different likenesses as my face compared to your's for instance, but beings of a different order.
Genero touches on this in his tale describing his "journey to ixtlan". Carlos named the book after the tale that Genero related in that book.
I believe this also relates to the "coats of skins" from Genesis. Don Juan uses the skins of an onion to describe it and also the tree of life of the Qabalah is sometimes described in that way.
He said to me, "John, John, why do you doubt, or why are you afraid? You are not unfamiliar with this image, are you?- that is, do not be timid! - I am the one who is with you always. I am the Father, I am the Mother, I am the Son.
Father, Son, Holy Spirit?
I am the undefiled and incorruptible one. Now I have come to teach you what is and what is to come to pass, that you may know the things which are not revealed and those which are revealed, and to teach you concerning the unwavering race of the perfect Man. Now, therefore, lift up your face, that you may receive the things that I shall teach you today, and may tell them to your fellow spirits who are from the unwavering race of the perfect Man."
He is going to reveal something to John and John in turn is to pass it on.
Posts: 15
Threads: 3
Joined: Feb 2019
If your research what has been said by Carlos and DJ you will find the term for this forum is erroneous and would be confusing for those who will come. The
beginning of the new seers cycle was about 500 years ago and ended with DJ's lineage We inherit a working living knowledge from both groups, directly because
of the tenant. Maybe understanding this difference can be helpful to this thread.
The Seers of the New Era
"The old and the new seers represent two extreme positions facing the same challenge,
the result of the adaptation of sorcerers to very concrete historical circumstances. But
today, times, have changed.
"By the Eagle's design, at least one of the lineages of new seers has been able to redirect
its task. The last twenty-seven naguals of my line had tried to recover the fearless spirit of
the old seers, while at the same time maintaining the sobriety of purpose of the new. In
that way, we were able to gather enough energy to attempt a new and more balanced
adaptation of the teachings.
"According to Don Juan, massive changes in energy are happening at the present time,
which will inevitably cause the emergence of a new cycle of warriors. To differentiate
them from their predecessors, I have called them modern seers, or seers of the new era."
Posts: 0
Threads: 0
Joined: Feb 2019
ninth octave wrote:
JESUS the EAGLE
"And our sister Sophia is she who came down in innocence in order to rectify her deficiency. Therefore she was called Life, which is the mother of the living, by the foreknowledge of the sovereignty of heaven. And through her they have tasted the perfect Knowledge. I appeared in the form of an eagle on the tree of knowledge, which is the Epinoia from the foreknowledge of the pure light, that I might teach and awaken them out of the depth of sleep. For they were both in a fallen state and they recognized their nakedness. The Epinoia appeared to them as a light and she awakened their thinking."
I am suggesting the Eagle's enamations are apparent in the gnostic scriptures. Jesus is the Eagle present on the tree of knowledge!
You could very well be right. The parallels are many.
The Eagle is the source of the "Emanations" of which ALL worlds are made. The Tree of Life has ten "Sephiroth", also called "Emanations" of which all is made.
The tree is also called Jacob's ladder or ladder of lights. In Jacob's vision his lord is at the top of that ladder.
Jesus is referred to as the Tree of life in Revelations.
Jesus refers to himself as such in the first chapter of John's gospel
Ex 19:4
Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself.
Isa 40:31
But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.
Don Juan said there was no Eagle, as such but that that was just the way it appeared.
This, I believe, is one of those things that once a person sees it they would know why the Eagle was chosen as a word to represesnt it.
Posts: 0
Threads: 0
Joined: Feb 2019
""What is unfortunate, in my opinion, in DJ’s words above, is when he tags on that last bit, “but a universe of eagles emanations.” You see we need more space to contemplate the no objects before (DJ not me) jumping to what I believe is a level of metaphysical interpretation, “eagles emanations”." Lex
There you go getting spooky again. lol. Eagle's Emanations are just a word he used to describe something he actually saw/experienced. You are discussing a reality and you want to make it "metaphysical." And therefore you think it needs to be interpreted. Bob
No Bob. I believe I have been consistent concerning this. It is unfortunate that DJ (or CC wrestling with what he thought DJ meant) uses the words eagle’s emanations. I do not want to get to a level of metaphysical interpretation, I am pointing out that is what DJ or CC are doing by personally interpreting the experience this way. That is why I used the word "unfortunate" to begin with.
The problem arises with man’s awareness; it is his awareness that becomes entangled and confused. At the crucial moment when it should be a simple case of the emanations acknowledging themselves, man’s awareness is compelled to interpret. The result is a vision of the Eagle and the Eagle’s emanations. But there is no eagle and no eagle’s emanations. What is out there is something that no living creature can grasp.” FFW
He experienced the emanations. What he is saying here is that instead of a world of objects there is a world of emanations. Bob
By saying this Bob you give the world of emanations more credence than the the world of objects. But as DJ says there are no emanations, and certainly not filaments of light which can be seen. So he is definitely NOT saying "that instead of a world of objects there is a world of emanations."
Posts: 0
Threads: 0
Joined: Feb 2019
The beginning
of the new seers cycle was about 5000 years ago and ended with DJ's
lineage We inherit a working living knowledge from both groups, directly
because of the tenant. Nemo
Seers aim to be free, to be unbiased witnesses incapable of passing judgment; otherwise they would have to assume the responsibility for bringing about a more adjusted cycle. No one can do that. The new cycle, if it is to come must come of itself. ???????????????? FFW
Thank you Nemo.
So now we have, old seers and new seers and modern seers and a "new cycle". I was trying to show from Fire From Within how DJ thought the new seers differed from the old seers and had a different task and were also concerned with correcting the errors of the old seers. In FFW DJ seems to be talking about the news seers as if they were the ones who's direction changed because of the Tenant.
"By the Eagle's design, at least one of the lineages of new seers has been able to redirect
its task. The last twenty-seven naguals of my line had tried to recover the fearless spirit of
the old seers, while at the same time maintaining the sobriety of purpose of the new. In
that way, we were able to gather enough energy to attempt a new and more balanced
adaptation of the teachings. Nemo (I forget which book this was nemo)
Then CC says this, I believe tying it to the "new cycle" quote from FFW.
"According to Don Juan, massive changes in energy are happening at the present time,
which will inevitably cause the emergence of a new cycle of warriors. To differentiate
them from their predecessors, I have called them modern seers, or seers of the new era."
I believe this is pure Castaneda, not sure DJ had anything to do with this remark, but that is just me. But in saying this, "To differentiate them from their predecessors" by predecessors is he referring to the old seers or the new seers or both. If so perhaps Nemo you point out how they differ.
Ohhh the "impeccability" of Castaneda.
Posts: 0
Threads: 0
Joined: Feb 2019
lex icon wrote:
""What is unfortunate, in my opinion, in DJ’s words above, is when he tags on that last bit, “but a universe of eagles emanations.” You see we need more space to contemplate the no objects before (DJ not me) jumping to what I believe is a level of metaphysical interpretation, “eagles emanations”." Lex
""There you go getting spooky again. lol. Eagle's Emanations are just a word he used to describe something he actually saw/experienced. You are discussing a reality and you want to make it "metaphysical." And therefore you think it needs to be interpreted. Bob""
""No Bob. I believe I have been consistent concerning this. It is unfortunate that DJ (or CC wrestling with what he thought DJ meant) uses the words eagle’s emanations. I do not want to get to a level of metaphysical interpretation, I am pointing out that is what DJ or CC are doing by personally interpreting the experience this way. That is why I used the word "unfortunate" to begin with.""
My apologies, maybe I misunderstood your understanding. My point was there is something "out there". To speak about it Don Juan put a name on it. That is not metaphysical in my understanding of the term. There is something that fits his description of the Great Bands of Emanations. I've seen them. As I've said they seem to fit some biblical and Qabalah descriptions. Anyone who has seen them would agree with me.
Just as you and I can agree when we see a rock, or a chair or whatever.
To say there is really no eagle and no emanations is the akin to saying there are no rocks. Because if there are no objects that would be true. Yet we agree on the rocks.
""The problem arises with man’s awareness; it is his awareness that becomes entangled and confused. At the crucial moment when it should be a simple case of the emanations acknowledging themselves, man’s awareness is compelled to interpret. The result is a vision of the Eagle and the Eagle’s emanations. But there is no eagle and no eagle’s emanations. What is out there is something that no living creature can grasp.” FFW""
Here, I believe is the crux of the matter, he said above, "when it should be a simple case of the emanations acknowledging themselves.." It is not that simple and he knew it wasn't. If it were a simple case of explaining that, then there would be no need for explaining because we would already know it. It is too abstract to explain, yet he has to use words to explain it.
He still has to use the same concept of ""emanations".. acknowledging themselves", to say that he wished that he didn't have to use that concept.
I suppose you could skip steps along the way. In the Qabalah there is a teaching that by going up the middle pillar you gain an understanding of the side pillars. So, if Carlos skipped the whole emanations thing somehow it's possible, (like somehow having Don Juan just put it into his head, or taking him to a higher plane where he would then know), but then there might not be any books to be discussing here. When this type of thing happened in biblical literature the descriptions are very hard to understand, ie. Revelations or Ezekial's vision. Paul had a vision that he didn't even try to explain,..said it was unlawful to even talk about and hard to be uttered etc.
That there are Emanations in earlier books and then aren't Emanations in later books may also have been a method
to keep Carlos from getting trapped in a way of thinking.
""He experienced the emanations. What he is saying here is that instead of a world of objects there is a world of emanations. Bob""
By saying this Bob you give the world of emanations more credence than the the world of objects. But as DJ says there are no emanations, and certainly not filaments of light which can be seen. So he is definitely NOT saying "that instead of a world of objects there is a world of emanations."
I believe he is. And I don't see any definite about it. Or maybe "rather than", or "behind this world of object there lies,...", might have been better phrases. It can definitely be read that way “but a universe of eagles emanations.” So, I respectfully disagree on this point. But I could be wrong.
In certain ways I do give that world more credence because it is as I see it "above" or "behind" this world. It definitely felt more real than ""This"". As can be said for every spiritual experience I've ever had.
But I do not believe it is the ultimate Reality. We are still talking about "forms" here, after all. But any "legitimate" step outside of this world of rocks and chairs is a step in the right direction.
Posts: 0
Threads: 0
Joined: Feb 2019
I think on an instinctual level we know an awful lot. We've read CC and also there has been other forms of "transmission" into our awareness, in dreaming and such. We all here should not assume...and I'm not saying anyone is...that we as mere readers of CC have not been contacted by those who teach of this lineage. In other words, we should not assume that all our insights come just from the books, because I think we have had direct expereinces all along...some we recall and some we don't, with DJ and others. If DJ contacted you in, dreaming for example, he would give you a teaching according to your AP alignment so it will differ from what he said to Carlos but it all fits together in the grand scheme of design of intent, which is both personal and group oriented.
Posts: 0
Threads: 0
Joined: Feb 2019
The equivocation between cosmology and psychology is particular clear in a passage of the Kevaddha-sutta.(26) The Buddha tells of a certain bhikkhu (disciple) who wished to discover where the four great elements(mahabhuta) ceased without remainder (aparisesa nirujjhanti). It seems that we must understand this as wishing to know the full extent of the conditioned world-both physical and mental. The bhikkhu appears to have been a master of meditation, for we are told that he attained a state of concentration in which the path leading to the gods appeared to his concentrated mind ("tatharupam samadhim samapajji yatha samahite citte deva-yaniyo maggo paturahosi"). He then proceeds to approach the gods of ever higher levels to pose his question until eventually he finds himself in the presence of Mahabrahma himself, who confesses that he cannot answer the question and suggests that he return to the Buddha to put this question to him. The Buddha answers that the four elements cease, not "out there" in some remote outpost of the universe, but in "consciousness" (vinnana).(27) This account states very clearly how specific psychological states--in this instance, the mind concentrated in the various levels of meditation--give access to particular cosmological realms. Thus the bhikkhu is explicitly described as at once making a journey through various levels of the cosmos and making an inner, spiritual journey--a journey of the mind.
Commenting on the phrase, "when the world contracts beings are for the most part born in the realm of Radiance," as it
occurs in the Brahmajala Sutta, Buddhaghosa states that "`for the most part' [yebhuyyena] is said because there are other beings who are born either in higher Brahma realms or in the formless realms."
http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-EPT/rupert.htm
This reminds me also of a story told by LM of ParallelPerception in his book. He says that one of his benefactors helped him recover the memory of an experience. He remembered being shown a gateway that he believed was his ultimate destiny after this life. He was flanked by two beings as he was ushered into the wonders of that realm which as the beings informed him, were not beyond his comprehension. He comments that he was very excited by this prospect and also knowing something more (wonders) than he did not prior to this event. All pointing to beyond.
LM’s reaction to this seems to be that he was quite taken with this event and the promise it held, not much different than Jacob and his ladder or Abraham or any of the Biblical prophets. It is as if that from such experience one can see the way into this realm. Some may even go as far as to think that because of the magnitude of such an event that a portal to that realm has been opened and that even they themselves are that portal through which they can usher others. Certainly not beyond the realm of possibility. Looking at LM’s event through a Buddhist perspective it would seem that he is to be reincarnated as a god in a Brahma or Deva realm he seems to have already achieved formless realms.
But what I want to point out here is the difference between LM and the Bhikkhu. The Bhikkhu, who it was assumed was a meditation master and had unbridled access to the realm which LM seems to have glimpsed, was not so taken with the wonders of that realm. He was more concerned with the parameters of existence itself both of this world and any higher realm. After discussion with an exalted member of that wondrous realm he remained unsatisfied, his questions unanswered. However the exalted being with whom he spoke seemed sympathetic to his inquiry and steered him back to this realm to inquire of the Buddha, who it was believed would know, which turned out to be the case.
I offer this for consideration here because there has been much mentioned of Jacob’s ladder etc. and I just want to point out that even such high realms and revelations are after all within the grasp of sentient beings and upon examination is another case of “mapping” of making known what was previously unknown, but not the unknowable. For myself after all these years of mystical experience and exploration I find myself shoulder to shoulder with the Bhikkhu inquiring as to what it was the Buddha saw, who would have thought, certainly not I.
Posts: 0
Threads: 0
Joined: Feb 2019
lex icon wrote:
The equivocation between cosmology and psychology is particular clear in a passage of the Kevaddha-sutta.(26) The Buddha tells of a certain bhikkhu (disciple) who wished to discover where the four great elements(mahabhuta) ceased without remainder (aparisesa nirujjhanti). It seems that we must understand this as wishing to know the full extent of the conditioned world-both physical and mental. The bhikkhu appears to have been a master of meditation, for we are told that he attained a state of concentration in which the path leading to the gods appeared to his concentrated mind ("tatharupam samadhim samapajji yatha samahite citte deva-yaniyo maggo paturahosi"). He then proceeds to approach the gods of ever higher levels to pose his question until eventually he finds himself in the presence of Mahabrahma himself, who confesses that he cannot answer the question and suggests that he return to the Buddha to put this question to him. The Buddha answers that the four elements cease, not "out there" in some remote outpost of the universe, but in "consciousness" (vinnana).(27) This account states very clearly how specific psychological states--in this instance, the mind concentrated in the various levels of meditation--give access to particular cosmological realms. Thus the bhikkhu is explicitly described as at once making a journey through various levels of the cosmos and making an inner, spiritual journey--a journey of the mind.
Commenting on the phrase, "when the world contracts beings are for the most part born in the realm of Radiance," as it
occurs in the Brahmajala Sutta, Buddhaghosa states that " for the most part" [yebhuyyena] is said because there are other beings who are born either in higher Brahma realms or in the formless realms."
http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-EPT/rupert.htm
This reminds me also of a story told by LM of ParallelPerception in his book. He says that one of his benefactors helped him recover the memory of an experience. He remembered being shown a gateway that he believed was his ultimate destiny after this life. He was flanked by two beings as he was ushered into the wonders of that realm which as the beings informed him, were not beyond his comprehension. He comments that he was very excited by this prospect and also knowing something more (wonders) than he did not prior to this event. All pointing to beyond.
LM’s reaction to this seems to be that he was quite taken with this event and the promise it held, not much different than Jacob and his ladder or Abraham or any of the Biblical prophets. It is as if that from such experience one can see the way into this realm. Some may even go as far as to think that because of the magnitude of such an event that a portal to that realm has been opened and that even they themselves are that portal through which they can usher others. Certainly not beyond the realm of possibility. Looking at LM’s event through a Buddhist perspective it would seem that he is to be reincarnated as a god in a Brahma or Deva realm he seems to have already achieved formless realms.
But what I want to point out here is the difference between LM and the Bhikkhu. The Bhikkhu, who it was assumed was a meditation master and had unbridled access to the realm which LM seems to have glimpsed, was not so taken with the wonders of that realm. He was more concerned with the parameters of existence itself both of this world and any higher realm. After discussion with an exalted member of that wondrous realm he remained unsatisfied, his questions unanswered. However the exalted being with whom he spoke seemed sympathetic to his inquiry and steered him back to this realm to inquire of the Buddha, who it was believed would know, which turned out to be the case.
I offer this for consideration here because there has been much mentioned of Jacob’s ladder etc. and I just want to point out that even such high realms and revelations are after all within the grasp of sentient beings and upon examination is another case of “mapping” of making known what was previously unknown, but not the unknowable. For myself after all these years of mystical experience and exploration I find myself shoulder to shoulder with the Bhikkhu inquiring as to what it was the Buddha saw, who would have thought, certainly not I.Hi Lex,
Good post your examples are to the point at hand. I highlighted what I though was most important to the discussion.
It is inner experience we are talking of. Perceptions.
If we are looking to map this physical world we may use the Rock analogy. Go three steps left of the rock at the corner of Mainstreet
and vine and dig three feet down to where the treasure is etc., etc.
The importance of a map is to lead you to a goal the goal. It is impossible to find the goal unless you know where you are on the map.
When I go into the Mall and find the map at the entrance, the first thing I look for is the YOU ARE HERE on the map.
Those are the stories in the bible. When you have an experience that was had by another in the bible you have found the YOU ARE HERE SIGN.
There are realms beyond what you have just experienced, and unlike the rock at Mainstreet and Vine, you may never see the same YOU ARE HERE sign again. The sign is not a place in consciousness. It is the token of a promise. A signature.
It is not a stationary sign.
Noah was given a rainbow (a bow in the heavens that also touched the earth) as a token of a covenant. A promise.
Jacob was given another promise or covenant promised to his seed after him. His token was a ladder that reached from earth to heaven.
Joseph was given a coat of many colors.
Jesus promised Nathanael he would see the same thing because he believed. (He also said he would see "greater things than these.")
So is it "Real" in the same sense as the rock? No, it is Real in another sense that is even greater.
It is a guarantee. An assurance. A signature to the seed of Jacob. (Believers both Jews and Gentiles) That the awareness (which is more important than the vision) that "God is in this place but I knew it not..", is always with the recipient of the token. And that that person will experience greater things than these and that they Are actually on the "Path."
It is in Western Mystic Tradition terms, an initiation.
In Eastern terminology, I suppose, not being that familiar with it, your descripion is probably correct. An experience of the Realm of Radiance that promises further experiences to come of the Formless realms. It is good not to get too hung up on it. (as my teacher warned) But to understand what it is is important. That does not mean you re-experience the Radiance thing each time on the way to the Formless. It is not that kind of map.
""I just want to point out that even such high realms and revelations are after all within the grasp of sentient beings and upon examination is another case of “mapping” of making known what was previously unknown, but not the unknowable.""
I noticed whenever Jesus would tell what the Kingdom he did not describe it. It used to frustrate the hell out of me.
But then I saw what he was doing. He was telling us how we would recognise what was happening to us "after the fact."
Some things cannot be described "in substance", but a lot of spiritual experiences can be recognised when the process or how it came about is related by another person who went through the same thing,.. but only AFTER we also go through it can we recognise it.
Mr 4:26
And he said, So is the kingdom of God, as if a man should cast seed into the ground;
Mr 4:27
And should sleep, and rise night and day, and the seed should spring and grow up, he knoweth not how.
I would add, that in my experience, the world is a very different place for a period of time, sometimes weeks, days, after a spiritual experience. This is a further evidence or token of the veracity of the experience.
""For myself after all these years of mystical experience and exploration I find myself shoulder to shoulder with the Bhikkhu inquiring as to what it was the Buddha saw, who would have thought, certainly not I.""
Instead of being shoulder to shoulder with the Buddha who was, in my estimation, unable to explain what he saw. And what he saw might not be what the student would see when he "got there", anyway.
Anyhow, I think you are right in that only the Know and Unknown can be mapped, (whatever map you are following). I don't think the Unknowable can.
Posts: 15
Threads: 3
Joined: Feb 2019
Lex, That old trick of asking questions, that you know the
answers to. I can best explain the difference between the old seers, the new
seers and the modern seers, by how they moved and or will move their assemblage
points, but will stay away from their relationship with intent.
The old sorcerers generally moved their assemblage
point with drugs and worked with second attention and in-organics, the new seers
with stalking and worked at achieving the third attention. Modern seers will
use all means it seems lol ,but primarily mass, integrity the earths changes, and rising heart energy
.
So a question for you relating to this thread, If this daily
life is a dream, and its not the dreaming body dreaming me, Both then are not
real and any object in either of them is not real. Would you agree that
whatever is dreaming us is having a real experience, yet also not real, so
would it not be easier to just see that experience is the only real thing?
So then the incredible shrinking man, can refuse the intent laid before him and pull the totality of himself together and intend with the
force of all that is! what an adventure/experience he would have.J
Posts: 0
Threads: 0
Joined: Feb 2019
nemo wrote:
Hi Nemo, Lex and all,
Nemo said,
""So a question for you relating to this thread, If this daily life is a dream, and its not the dreaming body dreaming me, Both then are not real and any object in either of them is not real. Would you agree that whatever is dreaming us is having a real experience, yet also not real, so would it not be easier to just see that experience is the only real thing?""
That is another way of explaining what I was trying to relate. The vision itself is not as important as what the vision teaches us.
There is always something important behind the appearance. Just as a word contains a meaning or meanings within it.
By the way we have been mixing "lines of the earth" and "great bands of emanations" a bit in this discussion.
I have never seen the lines of the earth as "fibres of light that connect all things". I wanted to correct that statement. Though I have seen fibres of light in smaller context.
I have seen what appears to match Don Juan's description of the great bands of emanations.
Posts: 0
Threads: 0
Joined: Feb 2019
Bob May wrote:
ninth octave wrote:
JESUS the EAGLE
"And our sister Sophia is she who came down in innocence in order to rectify her deficiency. Therefore she was called Life, which is the mother of the living, by the foreknowledge of the sovereignty of heaven. And through her they have tasted the perfect Knowledge. I appeared in the form of an eagle on the tree of knowledge, which is the Epinoia from the foreknowledge of the pure light, that I might teach and awaken them out of the depth of sleep. For they were both in a fallen state and they recognized their nakedness. The Epinoia appeared to them as a light and she awakened their thinking."
I am suggesting the Eagle's enamations are apparent in the gnostic scriptures. Jesus is the Eagle present on the tree of knowledge!
You could very well be right. The parallels are many.
The Eagle is the source of the "Emanations" of which ALL worlds are made. The Tree of Life has ten "Sephiroth", also called "Emanations" of which all is made.
The tree is also called Jacob's ladder or ladder of lights. In Jacob's vision his lord is at the top of that ladder.
Jesus is referred to as the Tree of life in Revelations.
Jesus refers to himself as such in the first chapter of John's gospel
Ex 19:4
Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself.
Isa 40:31
But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.
Don Juan said there was no Eagle, as such but that that was just the way it appeared.
This, I believe, is one of those things that once a person sees it they would know why the Eagle was chosen as a word to represesnt it. Thanks Bob May for all this unending imput.
Why do you believe the Eagle was chosen as the word?
Posts: 0
Threads: 0
Joined: Feb 2019
Hi Lex,
When you mentioned "the camels gate, the proverbial eye of the needle" how are you relating this to first truth of awareness?
Posts: 0
Threads: 0
Joined: Feb 2019
Lex, That old trick of asking questions, that you know the
answers to. I can best explain the difference between the old seers, the new
seers and the modern seers, by how they moved and or will move their assemblage
points, but will stay away from their relationship with intent. Nemo
Nemo I might from time to time engage in this sort of thing but this is not one of those time. I do not know what modern seers are or what they are up to according to CC's point of view. And your reply has not really helped clarify anything about modern seers for me.
I will from time to time point out DJ's point of view as presented by CC. One aspect of what I am doing is to point out the more unusual aspects of his world view, aspects I believe are not immediately accessible. I know for myself that when I first read CC there was a lot of these kinds of things that escaped me, I assume it is that way for others. My assumption about this is further bolstered that I do not see many others alluding to the these aspects when they write in the forums. Most of the conversations, there are exceptions, just seem to reiterate what CC thought. I see this as no different than Christians, who, when they speak and write seem to think Jesus is a Christian and that they are just like Jesus. So I know I am being provocative when I do this. Especially when it comes to new seer old seer outlines. I seem to be one of the few pressing this issue and rocking cozy appearances.
Most of what I read in sorcery circles falls squarely into the old seer category yet these writings are written by those who would consider themselves new seers. My assessment is not unfounded but is guided in the matter entirely by DJ who was the one who outlined these differences. Such an assessment would not have occurred to me had I not read what he is reported to have said concerning this. I personally have nothing against old seers. They are highly adventurous explorers of the unknown and offer exciting tales to ponder. Some times I wish I was one lol. There is certainly no expectation from me for those old seers to become new seers. I am just trying to clarify things that appear to have been muddied to me.
Ninth you asked me what I meant about the proverbial eye on the needle gate comment. According to DJ the truths concerning awareness are arranged in a specific order. The old seers were aware of these truths but not the order in which they were arranged. DJ is emphasizing the order over the truths themselves, (the order has power). Now that is what I have been pointing out. This was of utmost importance to DJ and the new seers but seems to have been largely overlooked these days. Honestly ask yourselves how often has this order been spoken of by the seers you know and ask yourself how much have you considered this order and what are your findings?
The first truth in the order is placed first for a reason. The way I see it is that if one does not understand the no object perspective that DJ talked of then when it comes to considering the other truths there will be a missing aspect to their consideration and it is that little hardly noticed difference that will have massive ramifications further down the line. Sort of like that camels gate in Jerusalem. In order to get through this gate one had to dispossess the camel of all ones personal goods. It was a tight squeeze. So if we bring with us all these objects into the world of sorcery their "presence" will effect how we handle the other truths what we do with them and how we SEE them. I believe DJ wishes to disencumber us of the clutter of objects and give us room to maneuver in the vast expanse (of no objects) as we handle these truths and how they were arranged. It is the order of the truths that impact us. It takes years of handling this to make progress and to see in the same manner that the new seers see.
Now if anyone following this thread who considers themselves a new seer and yet does not live up DJ's definition of a new seer it would be very informative to all as to how you bridge the divide between your world view and DJ's.
[img]file:///Users/karldisley/Documents/Buddha%20images/Gankyl.jpeg[/img]
[img]file:///Users/karldisley/Documents/Buddha%20images/Gankyl.jpeg[/img][img]file:///Users/karldisley/Documents/Buddha%20images/Gakyi.gif[/img]
Posts: 0
Threads: 0
Joined: Feb 2019
Bob,
Just a quick reply about mapping and making the unknown known.
We can as you said look at mapping in the sense of getting from here to there "directional" and I think this point to the idea of PATH a spiritual path even.
There is also the idea of mapping as corroborating experientially without reference to a Path
Posts: 15
Threads: 3
Joined: Feb 2019
Okay I will elaborate, This is what I see when I focus my seeing at that time. The old seers used power plants to jump into the unknown. When I visited Mexico and visited different archeological sites I would get visions and know what was what and used for, and one of the things that was done is others where forced to explore the unknown and bring back their findings. They had the time and resources to specialize members of their society for specific tasks in this regard. The limiting thing to their search was the distortion created in their luminosity by these substances, meaning their energetic vibration was very low but power plants could increase their intensity, but their disconnect from the heart meant that their will and techniques, though effective in many ways limited their ability to see past the conclusions of the dominant ones. The best examples of modern day old sorcerer type energy would be Jim Morrison of the doors, and the group who run Western society now. (Wont elaborate now) but its their if you look.
The new seers where the ones that started to get an inkling that to engage attention with the unknown and not be clear limited what the attention could do, and saw energetically that the anchors to being light enough to handle the unknown was the history of each particular awareness, hence the emphasis on the recapitulation, when you interfere with someone you leave that energy in them and must bring it back to be complete. Now mother Teresa was a much nicer person than me, but its not about being nice either lolJ.
Now at the end of the lineage is also the ending of the structure of the rule and with it the end of the new seers.
So now we have the new age movement, which is not the same as the seers of the new era. The big difference is Modern seers will be concerned with the techniques that will allow their personal awareness to be maintained past death. I have mentioned this point a few times to you and Tiff and you both do not address it. Clearly Two Lizards is a seer warrior of the new era, so, lets see what he has to say in his book, maybe he will bring some clarity to this for you.
Posts: 0
Threads: 0
Joined: Feb 2019
Hi Nemo,
Yes, now that I am back in nagualism, I concur with the understanding of the aim of new seers being keeping "personal awareness to be maintained past death." When we talked last...about at least over 4 months ago..I was trying to break away from nagualism, into buddhism. So what I said to you then was different then what I say here today. What brought me back to nagualism?..a nagual. I saw his sorcery at work...then like the monkies sang, "I became a believer". Buddhism is great, and I met a monk sorcerer recently...so we can consider it a happy combination, (anything were you discipline and achieve inner silence is kindred to spirit path, but I'm more stressing the nagual teachings now, since I was introduced to that and loved that first. Love at first site when I read CC. First it was explained to me, the books, then I read. As the person was explaining it, I kept saying to myself "yes, yes, I know this I know!" Like it was deja vu. So we should always remember the sorcery.
Posts: 15
Threads: 3
Joined: Feb 2019
Carlos is the man, and i am very excited about another three point nagual in our midst
"Encounters With The Nagual" - ©2004 by Armando Torres
The Task of the Nagual
"The task which my teacher gave me, and my mission as a nagual for the era which is commencing, is to move the assemblage point of the Earth."
1 was expecting anything but that. For a few seconds, my mind didn't react; I simply didn't have a clue what Carlos was saying. But suddenly, the monstrosity of his task hit me in the center of my reason, and I found myself thinking that Carlos had either gone crazy, or he was talking about something I didn't have the faintest idea about.
Disconcerting me even further, he seemed to read my thoughts, because he made a little nod of agreement and murmured:
"That's it. You have to be crazy to let yourself commit to something like that, and even crazier to believe that it is possible to do."
I asked him how a man could possibly even think about a feat like that.
He answered:
"Just like the other world has its mobile unit-- the inorganic beings-- Earth also has one, and it's us. We are children of the Earth. The movement of the assemblage point of a sufficient number of warriors can change the modality of the time, and that is what I am working towards."
He explained that the assemblage point of Earth has changed many times in the past, and will do so in the future. In recent times it has been moving steadily towards the area of reason.
"That is magnificent, because, once it is fixated there, humanity will have an opportunity to move to the other side, and many men and women will become aware. The challenge for the seers of the future will be to maintain that focus for the necessary length of time until it becomes fixated there, becoming a permanent position for the planet, a new center, which we will be able to turn to anytime in a perfectly natural way.
"The refocusing of the Earth's attention is the product of the combined action of many generations of naguals. The new seers conceived of it as a possibility, and discovered that it was part of the Rule. They incubated it with their intent, and determined that now is the time to begin it."
Posts: 0
Threads: 0
Joined: Feb 2019
I believe the New Seers have developed in two different distinct ways. The linages became more diverse and through modern technology are able to cross connect over the world. The "western" seers are actually what I would call the new seers because of this transformation. The "eastern" seers are secretive and maintain age old traditions and would be classed as old seers still. Modern seers I believe fit those who embrace Castaneda and seek to advance the teachings of Don Juan AND Don Genaro (who still does not get enough credit as his participation rivals Don Juan's in Castaneda's development as a sorcerer). So to clarify the New Seers use all the knowledge and seek to create a new understanding of the world and what lies waits beyond death. The modern seers are new seers who assemble the world through the perception of nagualism.
Posts: 15
Threads: 3
Joined: Feb 2019
Nagual LoneWolf wrote:I believe the New Seers have developed in two different distinct ways. The linages became more diverse and through modern technology are able to cross connect over the world. The "western" seers are actually what I would call the new seers because of this transformation. The "eastern" seers are secretive and maintain age old traditions and would be classed as old seers still. Modern seers I believe fit those who embrace Castaneda and seek to advance the teachings of Don Juan AND Don Genaro (who still does not get enough credit as his participation rivals Don Juan's in Castaneda's development as a sorcerer). So to clarify the New Seers use all the knowledge and seek to create a new understanding of the world and what lies waits beyond death. The modern seers are new seers who assemble the world through the perception of nagualism.Good point, but I might add we have plenty of secretive
disciplines in the west. And I have heard The Dalai Lama say that their
traditions are being restructured and open because of Tibetan’s displacement.
Posts: 0
Threads: 0
Joined: Feb 2019
Tis great to see you here Nemo
|
