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"If you enter a state of non-ordinary reality, it is only to draw from it what you need in order to see the miraculous character of ordinary reality, for me the way to live-the path with heart-is presence in the world." Carlos Castaneda
I think CC is giving the new seer a hint in this quote.
The new seer trains their eyes to unseen what their eyes have been telling them to see since birth. The pre-existing condition that our eyes and views have been accustomed to seeing just because. The new seer can see the magic, the mystery in the mundane by changing the ordinary world with a parallel perception that aligns this new seeing with the power of intent -a true invisible field of energy that exists in the universe.It takes eyes to see and ears to hear. The power of intent is right in front of us now just like the kingdom of God is. Will we see, know and use the power of intent when granted its presence. This is what CC is asking the new seer to be close with.
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Wow, I tell you. Trying to get people to talk about this no object perspective of DJ’s is not easy. It’s like pulling teeth. From the replies in this thread it seems people would rather talk about anything else, especially the unknown. I have patiently tried to keep bringing this back but now the deflections are mounting so fast that trying to recover DJ’s subtle perspective concerning this requires a different tact.
Now this is where the difficulty lies. People see the unknowable all the time they just do not recognize it. Then there are those who are spiritually sensitive and have made great headway in their journey adroitly distinguishing between the known and the unknown but for them the unknowable seems like some mystery hidden behind the scenes a mystery that they guess is at the core of everything and then they start building the “monumental edifices” of speculation concerning this so called mystery. In the end these spiritually sensitive ones are just as unable as those who nothing of the unknown when it comes to the unknowable. The spiritually sensitive ones do not know how to separate the unknowable from the unknown.
So I will shelve the topic for now. I will find a way to come back to it.
What seems to be of interest is what is swirling in the deflections. When I brought up the unknowable and this subtle distinction of DJ’s concerning new and old seers there seemed to be a mild scrambling to seize the narrative concerning this subtle distinction of DJ’s and steer that narrative into something more inline with how people imagine themselves as new seers and away from DJ’s view about the old seers, to steer the narrative into something more comfortable.
So we can leave the unknowable and no objects alone for the time being and focus on these other issues instead. I just want it noted that that is what we appear to be doing.
Probably intent has a hand in this, so let’s see where it goes.
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So now we have the new age movement, which is not the same as the seers of the new era. The big difference is Modern seers will be concerned with the techniques that will allow their personal awareness to be maintained past death. I have mentioned this point a few times to you and Tiff and you both do not address it. Nemo
Ok Nemo, name me one such technique “that will allow personal awareness to be maintained past death”. Please, if you do this I am assuming you are going to point to a technique unknown to the old seers and I guess also the new seers. (I understand the old seers were trying to avoid death and their techniques were geared that way.)
Clearly Two Lizards is a seer
warrior of the new era, so, lets see what he has to say in his book,
maybe he will bring some clarity to this for you. Nemo
So I take it from this comment that you are clear concerning this in a way that I am not, cool. I await your reply.
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“Just like the other world has its mobile unit-- the inorganic beings-- Earth also has one, and it's us. We are children of the Earth. The movement of the assemblage point of a sufficient number of warriors can change the modality of the time, and that is what I am working towards." Encounters with The Nagual, Armando Torres.
So now we have the new age movement, which is not the same as the seers of the new era. Nemo
Ok I am one of those people that just doesn’t take things at face value based on a cursory glance. I probe and then questions arise as to meaning.
Castaneda spent a lot of time detailing for us the Assemblage Point of people. He told people, what is was, what it looked like, what it its function was and where it is located. That kind of detail regarding the Earth’s Assemblage Point seems to be lacking.
Are we to believe from this that people are the AP of the Earth??? If that is so then IBs are the AP of their world, if this is indeed CC’s logic.
"The task which my teacher gave me, and my mission as a nagual for the era which is commencing, is to move the assemblage point of the Earth."Encounters with The Nagual, Armando Torres.
This statement in Armando Torres book seems to be at odds with a statement in Fire From With...
“Seers aim to be free, to be unbiased witnesses incapable of passing judgment; (???) otherwise they would have to assume the responsibility for bringing about a more adjusted cycle. No one can do that. The New Cycle, if it is to come about, must come of itself.” FFW
While under the direct tutelage of DJ while he was still alive and physically present, Castaneda says, “No one can do that.” Then more towards the end of his life (CC) presumable after DJ has left the scene for an alternate reality, Armando Torres reports CC now believing he can do this and that it is the task set him by DJ. This change of mind seems to coincide with CC’s public offering of Tensegrity and this “open door” into the sorcerers world. Something that previously only the designs of intent used Naguals and nagual parties built on the Rule to usher people in that were specifically “marked” by the designs of intent. Are we to believe that this is just a natural evolution of CC, (and the Rule)? If so a little more clarity regarding this would have been helpful.
He explained that the assemblage point of Earth has changed many times in the past, and will do so in the future. In recent times it has been moving steadily towards the area of reason. EWTN
It is comments like this one that really leave me scratching my head and saying...”Really? Really?” A high school student acquainted with even rudimentary history sees this. They might not call it an Assemblage Point. Which begs the question why is a nagual leader needed to do this now? The age of reason began with just the aid of a telescope. What kind of world does CC wish to usher in?
“The movement of the assemblage point of a sufficient number of warriors can change the modality of the time, and that is what I am working towards." EWTN
So it appears we are back to the “hundredth monkey theory” of the 1970s.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hundredth_monkey_effect
Many people of all different kinds and backgrounds are working on the premise of hundredth monkey theory in many different fields, I guess we should be grateful that Castaneda was to. But discrepancies niggle at me.
"The refocusing of the Earth's attention is the product of the combined
action of many generations of naguals. The new seers conceived of it as a
possibility, and discovered that it was part of the Rule." EWTN
Can some show me where in the Rule this is?
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New agers seem very concerned with keeping there awareness after death. They might not offer specific techniques but they certainly have a plethora of beliefs that they specifically advance in their edifice building. So do the faith based religions.
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Lex I will answer your points later, but I have a question for you first. Does the earth have a different assemblage point than you?
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This might help with the unknowable also, but its more related to help with the assemblage point of the earth.
If there are are 6 billion people on the earth, I would say there are 6 billion earths, each time a person makes
a decision their whole earth is effected by their decision and their separate hologram moves accordingly.
That's why DJ said all he has is the power of his decisions. We now have the convenience of the hologram
analogy for understanding , but the hoops needed to go through to explain that to someone a thousand years ago 
I guess you would come up with something like a ring of power.
So to me the unknowable is when the hologram brushes up against against frequencies that are unable to
be processed by the holographic generator of this particular spirit design. So to clarify the pen you hold in your
hand is not real. but the experience of the pen is real
"Let's say that when every one of us is born we bring with us a little ring of power. That little ring
is almost immediately put to use. So every one of us is already hooked from birth and our rings of
power are joined to everyone else's. In other words, our rings of power are hooked to the doing of
the world in order to make the world."
"Give me an example so I could understand it, " I said.
"For instance, our rings of power, yours and mine, are hooked right now to the doing in this room.
We are making this room. Our rings of power are spinning this room into being at this very
moment."
"Wait, wait, " I said. "This room is here by itself. I am not creating it. I have nothing to do with it."
Don Juan did not seem to be concerned with my argumentative protests. He very calmly maintained
that the room we were in was brought to being and was kept in place because of the force of
everybody's ring of power.
"You see, " he continued, "every one of us knows the doing of rooms because, in one way or
another, we have spent much of our lives in rooms. A man of knowledge, on the other hand,
develops another ring of power. I would call it the ring of not-doing, because it is hooked to notdoing.
With that ring, therefore, he can spin another world."JTI
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Ok Nemo, name me one such
technique “that will allow personal awareness to be maintained past death”.
Please, if you do this I am assuming you are going to point to a technique
unknown to the old seers and I guess also the new seers. (I understand the old
seers were trying to avoid death and their techniques were geared that way.)
Everything is a vibration a
resonance field, so the technique that I am using and I suspect will be used by
others is to change the resonance of my residence,) if you consider this a
hologram as I do then its really just tuning in another frequency another
vibrational field. This dream has a
beginning and an end, that end is provided for us by the intent of the general
flow of things, but the general flow of things need not point to something with
an end. If we can do that individually then we can also do it as a group. I
know you went to some Tensegrity sessions and for me anyway they gave me a
boost and that boost was a rise in frequency provided by the mass.
Clearly Two Lizards is a seer warrior of the new era, so,
lets see what he has to say in his book, maybe he will bring some clarity to
this for you. Nemo
So I take it from this comment that you are clear concerning
this in a way that I am not, cool. I await your reply.
You seem like me more seer than
warrior.
“Just like the other world has its mobile unit-- the
inorganic beings-- Earth also has one, and it's us. We are children of the
Earth. The movement of the assemblage point of a sufficient number of warriors
can change the modality of the time, and that is what I am working
towards." Encounters with The Nagual, Armando Torres.
So now we have the new age movement, which is not the same
as the seers of the new era. Nemo
Ok I am one of those people
that just doesn’t take things at face value based on a cursory glance. I probe
and then questions arise as to meaning.
My answer to this is direct
knowing.
Castaneda spent a lot of time detailing for us the
Assemblage Point of people. He told people, what is was, what it looked like,
what it its function was and where it is located. That kind of detail regarding
the Earth’s Assemblage Point seems to be lacking.
Are we to believe from this that people are the AP of the
Earth??? If that is so then IBs are the AP of their world, if this is indeed
CC’s logic.
How many worlds do you think
there are in a hologram? How many worlds do you think there are in 6 billion holograms? Don't forget infinity
Why have limits to your imagination?
"The task which my teacher gave me, and my mission as a
nagual for the era which is commencing, is to move the assemblage point of the
Earth."Encounters with The Nagual, Armando Torres.
This statement in Armando Torres book seems to be at odds
with a statement in Fire From With...
“Seers aim to be free, to be unbiased witnesses incapable of
passing judgment; (???) otherwise they would have to assume the responsibility
for bringing about a more adjusted cycle. No one can do that. The New Cycle, if
it is to come about, must come of itself.” FFW
While under the direct tutelage of DJ while he was still
alive and physically present, Castaneda says, “No one can do that.” Then more towards the end of his life (CC)
presumable after DJ has left the scene for an alternate reality, Armando Torres
reports CC now believing he can do this and that it is the task set him by DJ.
This change of mind seems to coincide with CC’s public offering of Tensegrity
and this “open door” into the sorcerers world. Something that previously only
the designs of intent used Naguals and nagual parties built on the Rule to
usher people in that were specifically “marked” by the designs of intent. Are we
to believe that this is just a natural evolution of CC, (and the Rule)? If so a
little more clarity regarding this would have been helpful.
He is the itself, of the new
cycle.
He explained that the assemblage point of Earth has changed
many times in the past, and will do so in the future. In recent times it has
been moving steadily towards the area of reason. EWTN
It is comments like this one that really leave me scratching
my head and saying...”Really? Really?” A high school student acquainted with even
rudimentary history sees this. They might not call it an Assemblage Point.
Which begs the question why is a nagual leader needed to do this now? The age
of reason began with just the aid of a telescope. What kind of world does CC
wish to usher in?
The dominion of reason over the
heart started when the flyers came.
“The movement of the assemblage point of a sufficient number
of warriors can change the modality of the time, and that is what I am working
towards." EWTN
So it appears we are back to the “hundredth monkey theory”
of the 1970s.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hundredth_monkey_effect
Many people of all different kinds and backgrounds are
working on the premise of hundredth
monkey theory in many different fields, I guess we should be grateful that
Castaneda was to. But discrepancies niggle at me.
With you skepticism you
reveal a belief, a belief that does not serve you. (Bashar)
"The refocusing of the Earth's attention is the product
of the combined action of many generations of naguals. The new seers conceived
of it as a possibility, and discovered that it was part of the Rule." EWTN
Can some show me where in the Rule this is?
It’s the rule of the three prong
nagual, Why do you need more than a three prong nagual stating it. The rule was
revealed to him directly from the spirit to us.
I believe when Jesus walked on the water he had joined his dreaming frequency to his daily world, his intent was free from from the world he was raised in.
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lex icon wrote:
Bob,
Just a quick reply about mapping and making the unknown known.
We can as you said look at mapping in the sense of getting from here to there "directional" and I think this point to the idea of PATH a spiritual path even.
There is also the idea of mapping as corroborating experientially without reference to a Path
Hi Lex,
Yes experientially is the way I am seeing this discussion. There is no up, down, left, right. Only experience. and spiritual experience specifically. Relationships. Relationships between awarenesses and also priorities between them is another way to put it.
Order and sequence of those awarenesses are the difference between the old and new seers, if I am understanding you correctly.
There is that same idea in the Qabalah also. The paths (awarenesses) on the tree of life are approached differently by a "magician" than they would be by a "mystic." Same "map" different priorities and goals. Different world views.
The same can be said of the Old Testament concerning Jews and Christians. In fact the books are arranged in different order of sequence.
If you never "see" a rock as not a rock as a first experience,..a basis or foundation, it does not mean you never will. As more of the "mystic" school of thought, I believe that I am guided in these things by a higher intelligence. Most of my experiences have just "fallen on me" so to speak. I am fine with that because I believe that He who gives me these experiences knows better than me what I need and when I need it.
The end goal is what is important to me. The blanks will be filled in as I go along. Meaning that if I don't see a rock as not a rock today, I can, by inference, believe wholeheartedly that a rock is not a rock. That is because I have had other awarenesses that have demonstrated to me beyond the shadow of a doubt that the world is not what I thought it was. Again a foundation.
On the other hand, the steps along the way can be specifically chosen by the person on the Path and specifically sought out.
Or they can be allowed to come in the sequence that they come.
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ninth octave wrote:
Bob May wrote:
ninth octave wrote:
JESUS the EAGLE
"And our sister Sophia is she who came down in innocence in order to rectify her deficiency. Therefore she was called Life, which is the mother of the living, by the foreknowledge of the sovereignty of heaven. And through her they have tasted the perfect Knowledge. I appeared in the form of an eagle on the tree of knowledge, which is the Epinoia from the foreknowledge of the pure light, that I might teach and awaken them out of the depth of sleep. For they were both in a fallen state and they recognized their nakedness. The Epinoia appeared to them as a light and she awakened their thinking."
I am suggesting the Eagle's enamations are apparent in the gnostic scriptures. Jesus is the Eagle present on the tree of knowledge!
You could very well be right. The parallels are many.
The Eagle is the source of the "Emanations" of which ALL worlds are made. The Tree of Life has ten "Sephiroth", also called "Emanations" of which all is made.
The tree is also called Jacob's ladder or ladder of lights. In Jacob's vision his lord is at the top of that ladder.
Jesus is referred to as the Tree of life in Revelations.
Jesus refers to himself as such in the first chapter of John's gospel
Ex 19:4
Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself.
Isa 40:31
But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.
Don Juan said there was no Eagle, as such but that that was just the way it appeared.
This, I believe, is one of those things that once a person sees it they would know why the Eagle was chosen as a word to represesnt it. Thanks Bob May for all this unending imput.
Why do you believe the Eagle was chosen as the word?
I think, if I remember correctly, Don Juan said it was because it resembled in shape or form an enormous black eagle.
I could speculate about what he saw but it would be just speculation.
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well let us speculate than,lol.. I think the eagle was likened to the shadow of God..or THE BLACK HOLE that sits atop of the universe spewing and spitting out re-creation.
I do think Carlos'' power of intent" was aligned with the universe when he instituted his magical passes in his seminars. He probably was into the 2012 Mayan craze. Every 26,000 years the earth shifts it AP? . I think that means true North is off by varying degrees and this too will affect mankind's consciousness.
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It’s the rule of the three prong
nagual, Why do you need more than a three prong nagual stating it. The rule was
revealed to him directly from the spirit to us. Nemo
And that ends all possibility of dialogue. Where shall I kneel that I too may proclaim him pope?
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lol, Lex ...let's get back on the train track ...as I obey, He will reveal...as I obey, He will obey...
goodnight!
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Relationships between awarenesses and also priorities between them is another way to put it.
Order and sequence of those awarenesses are the difference between the old and new seers, if I am understanding you correctly. Bob May
"There are untold dangers in the path of knowledge for those without sober understanding," he continued.
"I am outlining the order in which in which the new seers arranged the truths about awareness. so it will serve you as a map, a map that you have to corroborate with your seeing, but not with your eyes." FFW
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If u like lol, I know you don't approve of Carlos in many ways, but I said many other things. The idea you have that if it is written somewhere in a holy book by seers from antiquity that it would have more merit is a bit well traditional. Jesus said many things also but I could care less about what the pope says about what jesus said.
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The idea you have that if it is written somewhere in a holy book by
seers from antiquity that it would have more merit is a bit well
traditional. Nemo
What do you mean by this statement? I overcame the indoctrination of my early days.
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If u like lol, I know you don't approve of Carlos in many ways, but I said many other things. The idea you have that if it is written somewhere in a holy book by seers from antiquity that it would have more merit is a bit well traditional. Jesus said many things also but I could care less about what the pope says about what jesus said. Nemo
I think more of Carlos than you know. It is the unquestioning parroting of his followers that I detest. Once you put the blinders on and hold his authority above your own sovereignty and then try to stifle the questioning of that authority by another you forfeit any claim to liberty.
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If u like lol, I know you don't approve of Carlos in many ways, but I said many other things. The idea you have that if it is written somewhere in a holy book by seers from antiquity that it would have more merit is a bit well traditional. Jesus said many things also but I could care less about what the pope says about what jesus said. Nemo
You do not know if this is an idea I hold.
To suggest in this way that I do not approve of Carlos in many ways and then say that I hold the, I assume you are referring to the, the Bible, to have more merit than Castaneda’s writings. aims at two things.
1)You try to pit me personally against Castaneda, in a sorcery community, that holds Castaneda in high regard, trying to win their sympathy.
2)You try to make me look Christian, believing in the Bible and this hinders me somehow from truly getting on board with Castaneda.
Your attempts to isolate me transparent.
My questioning of Castaneda’s writings challenges your allegiance to his authority, which by your own words is, unquestioning, after all he is the Three Prong Nagual.
So what’s next for me Nemo....an inquisition?
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To my recollection DJ or Carlos never used the term hologram, or frequency or even said anything close to there being 6 billion separate earths. Cheers until next time my friend!
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lex icon wrote:
Hi Lex and all,
Relationships between awarenesses and also priorities between them is another way to put it.
Order and sequence of those awarenesses are the difference between the old and new seers, if I am understanding you correctly. Bob May
"There are untold dangers in the path of knowledge for those without sober understanding," he continued.
"I am outlining the order in which in which the new seers arranged the truths about awareness. so it will serve you as a map, a map that you have to corroborate with your seeing, but not with your eyes." FFW
Bob,
Just a quick reply about mapping and making the unknown known.
We can as you said look at mapping in the sense of getting from here to there "directional" and I think this point to the idea of PATH a spiritual path even.
There is also the idea of mapping as corroborating experientially without reference to a Path
Yes, there are untold dangers. Places we would rather not be and places that are difficult to get out of. and when I say places I am speaking of conscious awareness, let me make that clear.
Maps are created by those who have gone before for those who come after. And for those who come before to understand what they themselves have experienced in relation to what they will experience.
Paths on the tree of life are both subjective (awarenesses) and objective (road signs or landmarks).
The allegory of Jacob's ladder is an example of an objective landmark. You Are Here. Evidence that it is for those that come after is that he set up a stone there to mark the spot. There is no stone. The stone signifies a marker to those that come after that what his vision implies (the awareness and realisation he came to) were important in a foundational sense. The realisation/s that Jacob came to (or came to Jacob would be more accurate), others (his seed after him) will also have to come to if they are to continue on the same Path.
Foundational realizations are not necessarily bound to any one belief system or religion. I see parallels with Don Juan's description of the Great Emanations with Jacob's dream/vision as I said before.
But more importantly, I see parallels with what they both took away from the experience.
Jacob said that surely God was in the place but he knew it not.
Don Juan said that there was no difference between the religious man's viewpoint and a man of knowledges viewpoint.
Only a different way of saying the same thing. It was the Love Of God.
There was someone standing at the top of the ladder. Someone or something is in charge. Someone or something is arranging Reality in such a way as to present opportunities to those who wish to see more, can do so. Those that wish to ignore the maps can do so.
Don Juan's teachings, the bible and the study of the tree of life are such roadmaps.
On the other hand, I believe we are living within the map.
-I have respect for Carlos as a conveyor of information. I know the excercises in the JTI book, stopping internal dialog, not doing, leaving everything you knew, etc. work! It is a how to book about opening doors into the unknown. Beyond that, I have less confidence in them.
-The Pope is a political appointee. There were many. Some might be nice guys and some might have known some things.
-I was accused of being Catholic on this forum too. No big thing.
- I've been accused of being "demon possessed" by members of my former church and my own teacher and pastor right from the Sunday pulpit too. No big thing. Did it stop me from being a Christian? Of course not. Like I said I will "hold my own council", just like Yoda. That is with the help of the roadmaps of the bible and Qabala and the personal experiences that have and will be given to me by the one standing at the top of the ladder. That is Jesus. That is my Path.
Hi Ninth,
I could speculate on the Eagle.
One of the first experiences I had during meditation was right after an invocation of all the powers on the tree of life. Angels, Archangels, God names etc., in the book entitled The Greater Keys of Solomon.
It started out to be one of the best meditations I had ever had. Then a slight twinge of fear ran through me and everything changed.
I went into a dark plane. Total darkness and hopelessness. I thought I had committed the unpardonable sin. There was no presence of God and no light. Hard to describe, but later I found a phrase in the story of the Plagues in Egypt when the whole land was cursed by a "Darkness which could even be felt". This seemed to be what it was.
I was unable to meditate after that for several years because whenever I tried I would begin going to that place again.
It was something I had to face and overcome.
This may or may not be what Don Juan describes as an enormous black Eagle that eats mens souls and which we have to sneak past in order to continue living after death.
In the Qabala there are supposedly three levels of "hell". The "Plane of Darkness", which is what I believe I experienced, and the "Plane of Decaying Souls", of which I have read what sounds like descriptions in many after life near death experiences, etc. The third escapes my memory now.
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I think new seers are suppose to think independently and modernize with sobriety what the old seers tradition saw witnessed. And then fulfill their prescription so to speak.
Nemo,
I also picked up on the hologram interpretation only AFTER I read another article here on The Holographic Universe in this forum. I also had a prior inkling to the hologram theory after Lex himself mention something about the hologram on PP a few years back and had read it in a book on quantum theology. . I placed that on the shelve for a while till it was challenging to understand what "emptiness " really meant in reality or what is meant to be ""One"(without the poetic rhetoric implied). Lex mentioned the mirror mirage in the Zen Magnetic Forum - that I still had trouble understanding.lol I read another article by Michael Talbot and the Hologram analogy a few months ago and sent it to Lex saying now I thought this is what is really meant by the concept of ALL IS ONE and the theory of empty.
So I am more geared for the physics side of things,along side a scientific approach, maybe much like you into discovering the metaphysical aspect of things. Buddhism , DJ spoke in physic terms before the modern scientific terminology "hologram" became a new word in the 60's scientific community. Now more than 40 years have past since the hologram and I become aware of something that was since beginning-less time.
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Lex.
I’m going to jump into the discussion here---hope it doesn’t
feel too disruptive.
I’ve been posting in Wei’s forum for a few days now related
to the whole discussion on new and old seers. And what you’re saying above has a resonance with me on
several levels. First I want to
qualify what I’ll say though: I run the risk of doing exactly what I’m saying
is a seer’s error by responding!
Hopefully, I’ll post enough to explain that comment.
So first---don’t take other’s comments personally. It’s the unknown, literally, when a
thread goes “off topic” and into another vein than you originally
intended! Those comments don’t
have to be deflections. They can
simply be a change in direction. I
can see your desire to have a discussion along one theme but when people offer
a different flavor, it’s easy to interpret that as “Well, I thought we were
eating the same meal, but looks as though they’re at another dinner party!”
Open the aperture up for more light to enter.
Second, I love the thoughts in your second paragraph! I’m going to cut and paste from my
thread in Wei’s forum. This is
such a good example of energy aligning with like energy!
Each of us must develop our own system
for entering the unknown and unknowable. Instead we’ve adopted a “one size fits
all” model that can be purchased and plugged into our transportation system—or,
our body---for getting us to unknown locations, (ie. freedom) just like a GPS
in a car. But we would rather learn/quote/copy someone else than to
create a system that is individual for our own journey. Doesn’t mean
someone else doesn’t have pieces of what we all claim we’re looking for—freedom—it
just means we’re operating from the assumption that knowledge is universal
rather than selective. Then we lock onto those universal pieces, the
universal knowledge, and lose touch with experience unique to us.
We compare, contrast, argue, develop,
detail, articulate, develop, and write out the collective model for becoming a
seer or getting to freedom and then spend lots of time defending that
position---missing the significance in the uniqueness of our own experience as
though only as we corroborate it with others, is it viable. The tonal of
our times does this by standardizing, quantifying, and regulating what is best
for the system as a whole. We become detail bound, as though the depth of
our detail is what justifies our position when, in effect, it’s the opposite:
our love of detail locks us into the known and curtails movement into the
unknown.
We have the challenge and opportunity
to face the unknown daily!!!
The unknowable is anything we’ve NOT
experienced!!!
Death for example. By the time we get
to death, it’s no longer the unknowable; it’s now become the unknown as we move
into the realm of experience, and then immediately it becomes the known.
That movement from unknowable, to unknown, to known, happens in a
millisecond---yet, our collective sorceric knowledge says it’s related to the
understanding that we’re grappling to get to, as though it’s always just out of
our reach to attain. We’ve put the
attainment of the unknowable out of our grasp and we’ve done that because the
old seers told us it’s impossible to grasp.
Our freedom as seers is to face and to
respond to what presents itself before us daily; it’s not in the future, yet it
is in the respect that it’s “in front” of us—a minute fraction of placement
away from our being, yet within visual sight and we enter into it each and
every moment that we face our lives without lens cloudy with memory, or trauma,
or thought, or mind---anything that clouds our view of what lies in front of
our very noses!
So it isn’t imperative that my seeing match yours or vice
versa. It’s nice though when it
does. I want to spend more time
facing the mystery in front of me rather than in map making a matching map with
others.
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Here are the comments I was responding to (not quite sure how to make someone else's comments show up in my comment with the vertical lines alongside them )
Lex:
Wow, I tell you. Trying to get people to talk about this no
object perspective of DJ’s is not easy. It’s like pulling teeth. From
the replies in this thread it seems people would rather talk about
anything else, especially the unknown. I have patiently tried to keep
bringing this back but now the deflections are mounting so fast that
trying to recover DJ’s subtle perspective concerning this requires a
different tact.
Now this is where the difficulty lies. People see
the unknowable all the time they just do not recognize it. Then there
are those who are spiritually sensitive and have made great headway in
their journey adroitly distinguishing between the known and the unknown
but for them the unknowable seems like some mystery hidden behind the
scenes a mystery that they guess is at the core of everything and then
they start building the “monumental edifices” of speculation concerning
this so called mystery. In the end these spiritually sensitive ones are
just as unable as those who nothing of the unknown when it comes to the
unknowable. The spiritually sensitive ones do not know how to separate
the unknowable from the unknown.
So I will shelve the topic for now. I will find a way to come back to it.
What
seems to be of interest is what is swirling in the deflections. When I
brought up the unknowable and this subtle distinction of DJ’s concerning
new and old seers there seemed to be a mild scrambling to seize the
narrative concerning this subtle distinction of DJ’s and steer that
narrative into something more inline with how people imagine themselves
as new seers and away from DJ’s view about the old seers, to steer the
narrative into something more comfortable.
So we can leave the
unknowable and no objects alone for the time being and focus on these
other issues instead. I just want it noted that that is what we appear
to be doing.
Probably intent has a hand in this, so let’s see where it goes.
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I can see your desire to have a discussion along one theme but when people offer a different flavor, it’s easy to interpret that as “Well, I thought we were eating the same meal, but looks as though they’re at another dinner party!” Jessicar
LMAO Thanks Jessicar very funny. I needed that
We have the challenge and opportunity to face the unknown daily!!!
The unknowable is anything we’ve NOT experienced!!!
Death for example. By the time we get to death, it’s no longer the unknowable; it’s now become the unknown as we move into the realm of experience, and then immediately it becomes the known. That movement from unknowable, to unknown, to known, happens in a millisecond---yet, our collective sorceric knowledge says it’s related to the understanding that we’re grappling to get to, as though it’s always just out of our reach to attain. We’ve put the attainment of the unknowable out of our grasp and we’ve done that because the old seers told us it’s impossible to grasp.
Our freedom as seers is to face and to respond to what presents itself before us daily; it’s not in the future, yet it is in the respect that it’s “in front” of us—a minute fraction of placement away from our being, yet within visual sight and we enter into it each and every moment that we face our lives without lens cloudy with memory, or trauma, or thought, or mind---anything that clouds our view of what lies in front of our very noses! Jessicar
In this thread what I have set about doing is that where ever possible I have used DJ’s standards concerning this. I have tried to keep my perspective to a minimum. It is not so much that this is what I am saying about this, but Don Juan. I also know that often times his view is at odds with seers in this forum yet it seems to have gone unnoticed a lot of the time. But this happens regularly in any tradition when the words we are reading are removed from the living example. As I have mentioned before Christianity does it all the time. Castaneda had the good fortune for many conversations with DJ. His own view pitted against DJ’s. So many today who read Castaneda never really get to one view pitted against another, which was very definitely DJ’s style in CC’s works.
So If you don’t mind I would like to use what you said as an example here.
We have the challenge and opportunity to face the unknown daily!!!
The unknowable is anything we’ve NOT experienced!!!
Death for example. By the time we get to death, it’s no longer the unknowable; it’s now become the unknown as we move into the realm of experience, and then immediately it becomes the known. That movement from unknowable, to unknown, to known, happens in a millisecond- Jessicar.
This view you have presented here Jessicar is at odds with DJ’s view. You say the unknowable is anything we have not experienced but so is the unknown. What DJ is saying is that the unknowable can never become the known in the way the unknown does. You have blurred the two where Don Juan seeks to separate the two. This also happens in a millisecond.
“He said that not to seek order (of truths about awareness) was one of the great mistakes that the ancient seers made. A deadly consequence of that mistake was their assumption that the unknown and the unknowable are the same thing. It was up to the new seers to correct that error. They set up boundaries and defined the unknown as something veiled from man, shrouded perhaps by a terrifying concept, but which, nonetheless, is within man’s reach. The unknown becomes the known at any given time. The unknowable of the other hand, is the indescribable, the unthinkable, the unrealizable. It is something that will never be known to us, and yet, it is there, dazzling and at the same time horrifying in its vastness.” FFW
Now it just occurred to me that perhaps not everyone has read Fire From Within and this has been their first exposure to DJ’s radical ideas concerning objects and the unknowable. If so I recommend people read it.
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Nagual LoneWolf wrote: Modern seers I believe fit those who embrace Castaneda and seek to advance the teachings of Don Juan AND Don Genaro (who still does not get enough credit as his participation rivals Don Juan's in Castaneda's development as a sorcerer).
I was thinking yesterday about Don Genaro...along what you said here. He was a man of action, not words. So its one reason he does not get as much credit...he's not saying "profound things" but to Carlos, its clear he shifted his AP and very expertly. Don Juan would perhaps say or did say, Genaro did it better than he. It feels to me like DJ laid the foundation of understanding and then Genaro was brought in for the next levels of shifting awareness. Not done in a specific order, mind you, but at various junctures and helped Carlos get out of rigidity. If it had just been DJ talking to Carlos, I doubt much progression would have occurred. DJ, like any nagual has limits due to predilections and that's why lineages, warrior parties all work together and the whole does make up the parts, the parts enhance the whole individually and collectively. Not new information being stated here, but think it needs to be emphasized. Its not just abotu the teachings, its perhaps moreso about ACTION. Shifting, seeing, metamorphosis into sorcerer...Genaro.
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