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Sorcerer's Explanation reviewed
#1
“But before we venture beyond this point a fair warning is required; a teacher is supposed to speak in earnest terms and warn his disciple that the harmlessness and placidity of this moment are a mirage, that there is a bottomless abyss in front of him, and that once the door opens there is no way to close it again.” DJ, Tales Of Power.
So in true stalker fashion DJ issues his warning, remember he also did this when he plunged CC into a demonstration of no pity. These words are announced to CC at the culmination of a fourteen year apprenticeship with DJ, prior to the famous “sorcerer’s explanation”. For those that have not applied themselves with any discipline to a path such as this, the value of an explanation of this kind might have escaped you when you first came across it years ago. At least  it did me when I first heard it. So if you would indulge me, perhaps I can dust it off and we can take a fresh look at this “lethal” ingenuity.
“The sorcerer’s explanation, which does not seem like an explanation at all, is lethal, it seems harmless and charming, but as soon as the warrior opens himself to it, it delivers a blow that no one can parry.”  DJ, TOP
Now pay attention to that, it is an explanation that doesn’t seem like an explanation at all. Remember CC has been waiting fourteen years for this. DJ wanted to tell him all about it at the beginning but Genaro who was CC’s benefactor was “ a stickler for the rule”  and insisted that it come at the end of the apprenticeship.  DJ tries to deflate CC’s expectation by saying, “ Wouldn’t it be something if the sorcerer’s explanation turned out to be a dud?” which caused a lot of laughter from those in the know.
Now as we know a “A teacher never seeks apprentices and no one can solicit the teachings!” DJ  But how does this play out for us today? We have the books with the teachings in them.  Where as the “old fashioned way” required that power usually through an omen selected who was to receive the teachings and yes from a teacher, I know we don’t like that. We hate the idea of submitting to the authority of another. Truth is we do it all the time and really don’t mind, but in matters like this we don’t want to appear like a mere novice or that someone might appear “better” than us in a spiritual sense.  Once the selection process is made clear to the teacher, the teacher then “hooks” the unknowing apprentice and as I like to say the process of induction begins by any means necessary.
I am still in the preamble here so those with short attention spans might find this boring and your attention might be better suited wandering elsewhere. For the rest of us I am assuming that if like me you read something like Tales Of Power years ago and have probably not revisited it, yet remember the pertinent stories. But this brings us back to the problem of the teachings. We have the books, who needs a teacher right? At which point I would have to ask how’s that working for you? I think at best what the books provide is a look at another view of the world with which we might become familiar through the words of another. And the books do offer points of corroboration for those undergoing an apprenticeship of this sort. But this is where the teachings garnered through the books can become very slippery. Without the added component of a teacher, a teacher being one who has digested the teachings and has a capacity to impart them, without that component, a would be apprentice is on their own trying to make sense of the
teachings with perhaps the help of other would be apprentices in the same boat.Here is an example of what I am talking about;
“He explained that the art of a teacher was to deviate the apprentices attention from the main issues.” DJ, TOP
DJ did this with CC by focusing his attention on a pseudo task of learning to “see”. DJ was continuously tricking, distracting or tapping CC’s attention as he saw fit sometimes as we see by distracting with teachings that were not really teachings but didactic devices which DJ used a lot. Now for those that do not have the direct personal relationship with and benefit of the author of those teachings and yet have access to his words we run the risk of devoting our time and attention, lost in one of DJ’s didactic devices thinking them to be something other than what they are.
If we find ourselves like CC thinking we are learning to “see” we are chasing a decoy but when such a decoy is skillfully used by a competent teacher it can be used to trap attention, in this case it was used to get CC interested in “erasing personal history” and “dreaming”.  But why the use an attention decoy why not just directly introduce CC to those two aspects? Dj had CC doing all kinds of tasks thinking he was learning to see but without telling him what it was he was actually engaging tentatively in personal history erasing and dreaming. Had DJ taught CC directly about dreaming and erasing personal history right off the bat CC would have given these two aspects more attention than they deserve.
“Erasing personal history and dreaming should only be a help.” DJ TOP
Just let that sink in. These are minor aspects. You remember what the old seers did with dreaming. They took off with it and it became their “crowning jewel”. "If dreaming is exercised in its “totality” it is ultimately devastating" (DJ, TOP).  Hence the need for the teacher to be cautious with anything which might plunge his apprentice into aberration.
“What any apprentice needs to buffer him is temperance and strength. That’s why the teacher introduces the warrior’s way or living like a warrior. This is the glue that joins together everything in a sorcerer’s world. Bit by bit a teacher must forge and develop it. Without the sturdiness and level-headedness of the warrior’s way there is no possibility of withstanding the path of knowledge. DJ, TOPHere’s another example;
“A teacher had to take into consideration the personality of the apprentice, and in my case (cc) he had to be careful because I was violent and would have thought nothing of killing myself out of despair.”  TOP
If erasing personal history is engaged without its three supporting techniques, deleterious results occur. CC had been introduced to this in a specific manner tailored to him because of his violent nature.
Some might think I am stressing the need of a teacher in what I am saying here.  What I am emphasizing is the highly probable dead end we might find ourselves in when we extract teachings such as these from the system, tradition, methodology or the context that forged them and apply them to ourselves as we see fit. We end up expanding our personal inventory to include the sorcerer’s world view and some even manage to exchange their current world view for the sorcerer’s world view, quite a feat but equally a dead end. But that’s what the books tend to do. That’s what the books are good at.
“Once an apprentice has been hooked, the instruction begins. The first act of a teacher is to introduce the idea that the world we think we see is only a view, a description of the world. Every effort is geared to prove this point to his apprentice. But accepting it seems to be one of the hardest things one can do; we are complacently caught in our particular world view, which compels us us to feel and act as if we knew everything about the world. A teacher from the very first act he performs aims at stopping that world view.” DJ top.
Pay close attention here and be honest with yourselves. Has anybody that you know engaged with you to this degree? “Every effort is geared to prove this point!” Now for DJ this was an arduous task, demanding his every effort with his apprentice, because, “accepting it seems to be one of the hardest things one can do;”. But we have the books. We can just read this and draw the conclusion that the world is not as it appears and think that we have accepted what DJ was talking about.  And because we think we have accepted this we become inoculated against it. It was not the hardest thing for us to accept we just read about it and believed. Let me show you what I mean.
DJ goes on to tell us about stopping the internal dialogue. Now in these forums there has been a lot of focus about stopping the internal dialogue. Various techniques are offered from various traditions even. There is nothing really left to say about this except judging from what people are saying in forums such as this the fruit of stopping that internal dialogue seems to be missing. The same world view prevails but has just been modified to include the sorcerer’s world view. Many may believe they are stopping the internal dialogue through the various techniques they employ but it seems to have little effect on the basic description of the world.  The modified view goes something like this. The world is not what it appears. If we can stop our internal dialogue for a moment we will see that it is really an energetic universe. Then its back to normal and we rejoice that we now believe this.
But I say that this view of the world as it really is, is not only accessible when we stop the internal dialogue, it is the only view available to those who have been able to really accept what DJ was talking about. Stopping the internal dialogue at the beginning ushers in glimpses of this reality but then the basic world view and the modified world view just overwhelms as soon as the dialogue kicks in again just the same as in dreaming when we lose our 2nd attention. This is why it is one one of the hardest things to accept and demands every effort to move an apprentice beyond this. Just reading that the world is really energetic does little. Science is even saying that.
So you see in listening to DJ’s recapitulation here, we are back at square one the first truth about awareness and the world of objects. You see we have a tendency to think of the normal world view of the average man, as average and then the sorcerer’s world view as superior. The books tend to arouse such a dichotomy. We think that by accepting the sorcerer’s view, which just seems preposterous to the average man, that we accepted what DJ was trying to get across and have penetrated this description of the world. We have penetrated nothing when we do this. All we have done is accepted another world view, a more expansive and exciting world view, but still just another description.
This is why the first truth about awareness is the first truth, not the third or fifth but the first! It is the hardest to accept. Without it the other truths about awareness are distractions and will lead down the path of the old seers.
When a description of the world prevails we are compelled, this is not a choice, we are compelled, “to feel and act as if we knew everything about the world”  and this compulsion is evident in everything we say, even when we speak about the sorcerer’s world view! This is not a comment about arrogance or conceit as if DJ were talking about being a “know it all” It is a comment about ignorance! For those familiar with my ravings about emptiness and objects you will remember I said something to the effect that just because we give things names and separate them with our minds and share the same meanings with each other because of language does not mean we know anything at all about what it is we are seeing. Just because we can isolate an object from that vast expanse and then observe it with another isolated part of our minds does not  mean we know what that objects is. Look around, pick up an object, hold it in your hand, touch it look at it, I tell you you do not know what it is other than it is empty and non-substantial. Again I would like to point out that Buddhism and DJ and speaking the same language when it comes to this. Those that fail to see this connection probably just don’t get DJ concerning this. Am I  saying DJ was a Buddhist or that Nagualism is really Buddhist of course not! But concerning the first truth about awareness Buddhism is not only on the same page as DJ but is far more articulate about it.
What is the opposite of silence? It is the one-to-one relationship maintained between the tonal and the elements of its description. The tonal is not a separate object! To focus our attention upon the individuality of an object or many different individual objects establishes tonal. That is why unfocused gazing is so effective because when we do this we loosen the hold that objects have. By not focusing on objects individually or as many our eyes are flooded with all the details that are not represented by those objects as they are normally apprehended. Just on a personal note, my favorite way of doing this is by gazing at grass, the lawn, on a sunny day. It is all but impossible to focus on a single blade of grass anyway. But really once you get the hang of this any object will do, even TV. That is not enough though. One must apply this flood of information from every thing.  Or as DJ liked to say the tonal must be swept.
OK we are almost at the “turn”. I just want to reiterate that accepting the larger view of the world  common to sorcerer’s is not the same as accepting what DJ has to say about a description of the world.  DJ drove this point home when speaking of his benefactor and teacher he said,
“They were men of great power, but they were not men of knowledge. They never broke the bounds of their enormous world views and thus they never arrived at the totality of themselves.” TOP
“I gave you enough of the sorcerer’s view without letting you get hooked by it. I said that only if one pits the two views against each other can one weasel between them to arrive at the real world. I meant that one can arrive at the totality of oneself only when one fully understands that the world is merely a view, regardless of whether that view belongs to an ordinary man or to a sorcerer.” TOP
See here is one of the pitfalls of not having a relationship with a competent teacher. We have the books and we can imbibe the sorcerers view until absolutely drunk on it. And if we are really honest about it who wouldn’t prefer the sorcerer’s world to that of an average man. But those who indulge this lazy method have less chance than DJ’s teacher and benefactor! No these two views must be pitted against each other! Now here lies a benefit of books. The books have introduced us to the world view of a sorcerer. The two views cannot be pitted against each other unless one knows about both views.  This in itself is an art! To broach this subject in forums such as this, forums dedicated to Castaneda and the teachings of Don Juan can be a daunting challenge. Whenever this sort of thing is brought up it is treated with suspicion. However as I have pointed out this is a teaching of DJ. The problem lies in the fact that DJ is deviating from tradition, the tradition he has introduced us to through CC. What has happened for many though is they have embraced the tradition without realizing what DJ was doing.
“Here is where I varied from the tradition. After a lifelong struggle I know that what matters is not to learn a new description but to arrive at the totality of oneself.” DJ TOP(I would have loved to have talked to DJ about the particulars of how he came upon this.)
This is where I see many in these forums are at.  Many have embraced the world of sorcery but have never got past the descriptions and the activities appropriate to each description. But here lies an opportunity at least we know both views now! And with some effort perhaps we can see for ourselves was DJ was up to.
Alright now we are at the turn. Thank you for bearing with me. I know this is long.
“To be ready for the sorcerer’s explanation is a very difficult accomplishment. It shouldn’t be, but we insist on indulging in our lifelong view of the world. In this respect you and Nestor and Pablito are alike. Nestor hides behind his shyness and gloom, Pablito behind his disarming charm ; and you behind your cockiness and words. All are views that seem unchallengeable; and as long as you three persist in using them your bubbles of perception have not been cleared and the sorcerer’s explanation will have no meaning.” DJ, TOP
So just to be ready for the sorcerer’s explanation is a “very difficult accomplishment”, its not something we can just read about! But then DJ gives us the first hint;
“The mystery, or secret, of the sorcerer’s explanation is that it deals with unfolding the wings of perception.” DJ, TOP.
The totality of oneself illumined by the sorcerer’s explanation is available to those “weasels” who are able slip between the descriptions of the views of the average man and sorcerer. It is not available or made manifest to either,  an average man or sorcerer. A competent teacher guides apprentices between these poles safe guarding the apprentice from settling for either position, readying the apprentice for flight. (Not a flight into dreaming!)
DJ would have us believe that at birth our attention is fluid and our perception wide open. But we are told what it is we are perceiving, as if the ones telling us actually know, and slowly but surely our “bubble of perception” closes, defined by a description. Once attention has been sealed within this bubble caught by the description, self reflection is established but what “we” don’t realize is, the description is this reflection. Any ideas we have about our “self” that appears to be observing the reflection is merely the refractive activity of attention that is caught or fixed in this bubble. This is difficult to explain and see. So, how ever you come to terms with what DJ is saying about this is fine. There are many different ways of describing this from various traditions. For now just understand that the view from “inside” the bubble of perception prevents us from seeing the totality of ourselves. It is useless to talk about what this totality is, it has to be seen for oneself, however what we can say is; it is not what is perceived by a closed bubble of perception.
Now at this point we have a dilemma. In DJ’s system of teaching, a teacher works with the apprentice rearranging his view from the “inside”, with him, so to speak, preparing the way for a benefactor who is going to re-open the bubble of perception from the “outside”. DJ refers to this preparation by the teacher as a “delicate maneuver”. He also takes full responsibility for “leading a luminous being into the totality of themselves”. Quite simply put if you do not know how to do this for yourself you are in need of a teacher, no matter what you might think about teachers and gurus etc. If most of think we are going to achieve this by a method other than what DJ is proposing here, then that might well be, but don’t confuse your method with that of DJ and say they are the same or that you are on the same path.
“By now you must have realized that cleaning and reordering the island of the tonal means regrouping all its elements on the side of reason. My task has been to disarrange your ordinary view, not to destroy it but to force it to rally on the side of reason.” DJ TOP
I often thought that the tonal sometimes gets a bum rap. Sure it craps outs when the nagual comes forth, but in the end the tonal is equally as mysterious as the nagual. This tonal is made by perception itself! Too often in spiritual circles reason is thought of an enemy of sorts instead of an asset.  Reason is only a problem while it thinks it is in charge and can account for everything. Once the elements of tonal and its world view have been grouped around reason then there is the possibility of recognizing a singularity of will. By this I mean that the will is made available without all the entanglements that have been swept to one side. The will is solitary element and needs to be appreciated in its solitude. To give an example here. A Christian often prays to God saying, “Not my will be done but yours.” But usually the Christian has little idea what the will of God is at different times because the Christian’s own will has not been isolated and therefore he will not be able to recognize his own commands as the commands of the Eagle.
So the teacher prepares the apprentice and ready the apprentice awaits with a resolute, isolated  will, pure in intention. Now it is time for the benefactor to “break the seal”.  It is the will that meets or witnesses the nagual and “reason is not invited to the party”.  Now how a benefactor breaks the seal and opens the bubble of perception I really have little idea other than to think he acts directly with that bubble of perception in ways that cannot be accounted for by reason.  But lets just go with it .
“We can better explain this by saying that the task of the teacher is to wipe clean one half of the bubble and reorder everything on the other half. The benefactor’s task then is to open the bubble on the side that has been cleaned. ONCE THE SEAL HAS BEEN BROKEN THE WARRIOR IS NEVER THE SAME. HE HAS THEN COMMAND OF HIS TOTALITY.
Half of the is the ultimate center of reason , the tonal. The other half is the ultimate center of will, the nagual. That is the order that should prevail; any other arrangement is nonsensical and petty, because it goes against our nature; it robs us of our magical heritage and reduces us to nothing.” DJ TOP
If I were to ask what does it mean to gain the totality of oneself I am sure that I would get many different answers, chief of which would be “burning from within” and disappearing from the planet or that having command of one’s totality would mean having supernatural miraculous powers. So before we entertain all those exciting possibilities lets just stick with what DJ means by this. Gaining or having command of one’s totality means, according to DJ, having a bubble of perception where all the elements of the tonal have been “rallied around reason” all that is except for the will and that the seal of the bubble of perception has been broken from the outside and the will has witnessed the nagual. “This is the order that should prevail!” Now I don’t wish to belittle this, but that’s all it is. It doesn’t live up to the expectation many of us have when broken down like this. But for those that have rallied in their sobriety this prevailing order is everything!
Let’s just take this a step further.  DJ is an impeccable teacher. In his dealings with CC he worked from within and impeccably led him and prepared him to to view his totality. Genaro in his dealings with CC was an impeccable benefactor and he opened CC’s bubble of perception so that he could view his totality. If there are any doubts about this just read the Bubble of Perception chapter in Tales of power. CC vividly tells us what he witnessed when his seal was broken or shattered and his attention could move fluidly, but many still have different ideas about what this means.
“What was important was the fact that I had experienced with or in my body the premises of his explanation.” TOP
For CC the wings of his perception unfolded and touched the tonal and the nagual simultaneously without bouncing back and forth. (edit: changed font color of quotes for better visibility. no additions or subtractions from original thread)
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#2
LOL!!
I am still in the preamble here so those with short attention spans
might find this boring and your attention might be better suited
wandering elsewhere. Lex, I haven't read it all... yet, but I do plan on coming back and taking another stab at it, and another if need be.  Some good ideas in here,  thanks.
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#3
“Last night you witnessed not only the indescribable nagual but also the indescribable tonal. The last piece of the sorcerer’s explanation says that reason is merely reflecting an outside order, and that reason knows nothing about that order; it cannot explain, in the same way it cannot explain the nagual.  Reason can only witness the effects of the tonal, but never could it understand it, or unravel it.”“Sorcerer’s do the same thing with their will. They say that through the will they can witness the effects of the nagual. I can add now that through reason, no matter what we do with it, or how we do it, we are merely witnessing the effects of the tonal. In both cases there is no hope, ever, to understand or to explain what is that we are witnessing. DJ TOP
Some say that the tonal is different from the nagual and they would be right. But they are only correct from a relative point of view, a point of view of the tonal. From a non-relative perspective they are the same. Again Buddhism is much more articulate about this. Samsara is ultimately no different than nirvana. Nirvana is samsara purified of thought. Only thought distinguishes the two.
Those that emphasize the relative difference of the tonal and nagual tend to think that it is only the nagual that is indescribable but that would be because of compulsion we feel about the tonal.
When a description of the world prevails we are compelled, this is not a choice, we are compelled, “to feel and act as if we knew everything about the world”  and this compulsion is evident in everything we say, even when we speak about the sorcerer’s world view!
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#4
Metanoia is the Greek word for conversion:  a "fundamental transformation of mind." It is the process by which concepts are reorganized. Metanoia is a specialized, intensified adult form of the same world view development found shaping the mind of the infant.
 Formally associated with religion, metanoia proves to be the way which all genuine education takes place.
Metanoia is a seisure by the discipline given total attention, and "a restructuring of the attending mind. The reshaping of the mind is the principle key to the reality function. 
The same procedure found in the world viewdevelopment of the child, the metanoia of the advanced student, or the conversion to a religion, can be traced as well in the question answer process, or the proposing and eventual filling of an "empty category" in science.
 The asking of an ultimately serious question, which means to be seized in turn by an ultimately serious quest, reshapes our concepts in favor of the kind of perception needed to "see" the desired answer.
To be given ears to hear and eyes to see is to have one's concepts changed in favor of the discipline. A question determines and brings about its answer just as the desired end shapes the nature of the kind of questions asked.
 
Joseph Chilton Pearce//The Crack in the Cosmic Egg  New York: Pocket Book, 1973 // passage for discussion:
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#5
I would just like to acknowledge that it appears Nemo was correct in pointing this out.
If you research what has been said by Carlos and DJ you will find the term for this forum is erroneous and would be confusing for those who will come. Thebeginning of the new seers cycle was about 500 years ago and ended with DJ's lineage We inherit a working living knowledge from both groups, directly becauseof the tenant. Maybe understanding this difference can be helpful to this thread.  Nemo
 The Seers of the New Era
"The old and the new seers represent two extreme positions facing the same challenge,the result of the adaptation of sorcerers to very concrete historical circumstances. Buttoday, times, have changed."By the Eagle's design, at least one of the lineages of new seers has been able to redirectits task. The last twenty-seven naguals of my line had tried to recover the fearless spirit ofthe old seers, while at the same time maintaining the sobriety of purpose of the new. Inthat way, we were able to gather enough energy to attempt a new and more balancedadaptation of the teachings."According to Don Juan, massive changes in energy are happening at the present time,which will inevitably cause the emergence of a new cycle of warriors. To differentiatethem from their predecessors, I have called them modern seers, or seers of the new era." Nemo
http://sorcery.yuku.com/topic/2918/New- ... ers?page=3
To which I responded....
I believe this is pure Castaneda, not sure DJ had anything to do with this remark, but that is just me. But in saying this, "To differentiate them from their predecessors" by predecessors is he referring to the old seers or the new seers or both. If so perhaps Nemo you can point out how they differ? Lex
I now believe I was wrong about this and that DJ had everything to do with this as I hope to show
Lex, That old trick of asking questions, that you know the answers to. Nemo
Nemo I sincerely did not know the answer to the question I posed to you but now I see that was indeed the right question to ask! As we shall see here.
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#6
Have you ever wondered about this critique of the old seers that Don Juan has? In a couple of CC’s books it is an almost relentless narrative, that surfaces then recedes to the back ground only to surface again. I mean where did he get it? At first I thought it was from stories handed down through the lineage and there appears to be some truth to this.  Remember when DJ recounts for CC, Sebastian’s meeting with Tenant in 1723. He said something about the stories of the old ones had been pretty much hearsay until that day. Now they were given first hand accounts by someone who lived it and was there.
Then as we listen to DJ we see it is not just a matter of stories being handed down. DJ has refined his narrative with a lot of personal reflection on the subject. His reflection is aided by what he calls the “conclusions of the new seers and the truths about awareness”.  While he admires the accomplishments of the old seers he clearly and concisely distinguishes between himself and the old seers and heralds the new seers as the ones who set about correcting the errors of the old seers. At this point one might conclude DJ is a new seer right? But perhaps that is not entirely correct either.
I know when I was first trying to understand this and listened to some of DJ’s vivid descriptions of the old seers I began to see these old sorcerers as evil magicians or as deviant manipulating, power mongers lost in their own machinations in their bid to dominate everyone and everything. Daring, cunning, sinister and morbid etc. At first I thought that the new seers were trying to distance themselves from such men and all their anti-social negativity.  It would not surprise me if this is how some members of forums such as this try to distinguish themselves from the old seers while they go about the business of moving their assemblage points. But as I became more familiar with DJ’s view I saw that it was more than this.
Really all that negative stuff about the old seers is the result of something else. According to DJ they did not arrange the truths about awareness, they didn’t see the need. We are the beneficiaries of that order IF we avail ourselves of it. It is not the truths about awareness that is important here.  According to DJ most of the truths were discovered by the old seers to begin with anyway. It was the order in which the truths were arranged. (I am not going to go into that order here my point lies elsewhere).
As I was putting together my review of the sorcerer’s explanation posted above DJ’s narrative took another evolution for me and it is this insight that I wish to convey now.
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#7
Most interested in why the peculiar year of The Tenant -1723. Who has ever defied  death? . Jesus the risen Christ...What is purpose for the tale of the Death Defier ?  Jesus has demonstrated how he defied death by rearranged the gates of earth , hell , and  heaven.  Babaji defied death too and  is  still seen by human eyes  in India. Why India , and why Mexico?
Came across this..Nagual Lone Wolf leads this discussion from a 2007 forum, http://worldnagualforum.yuku.com/topic/ ... EATHDEFIER
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#8
Please let's not get side tracked by the Tenant here. There are plenty of other threads to discuss that.
We are (well at least me and Nemo) are trying to discern a movement of the spirit a direction.
At some point the new seers deviated from the task of the old seers. Now DJ has led the way and deviated again. I am trying to discern that direction and what it means.
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#9
Back in January I posted the Old Seers New Seers Thread. The thrust at that point was to focus on the difference between the old and new seers, drawing from DJ as much as possible. The leverage was the new seers conclusions and the order of the truths of awareness with emphasis on the first truth. I thought that, that was DJ’s main focus too.  But  keeping CC from going the way of the old seers because of his predilection was only half the battle.  I thought that this was DJ “pitting” the old sorcerer’s view against the new sorcerer’s view. It was not. This was DJ doling out just enough of the sorcerer’s view without letting his apprentice go the way of the old seers.  DJ is very tactical.
“I gave you enough of the sorcerer’s view without letting you get hooked by it. I said that only if one pits the two views against each other can one weasel between them to arrive at the real world. I meant that one can arrive at the totality of oneself only when one fully understands that the world is merely a view, regardless of whether that view belongs to an ordinary man or to a sorcerer.” TOPDJ need’s CC to be informed of the sorcerer’s view but he does not want to lose him to that view, he does not want him to become a sorcerer. But it is necessary for CC to know of the sorcerer’s view, preferably through the eyes of a new seer.  Once this view is established it can then be pitted, not against another (old) view of sorcery, like I first thought, old against the new, but against the common view of an average person. This pitting is not engaged for the purpose of establishing a superiority of or preference for the sorcerer’s view but for the purpose of “weaseling” between the two. To adopt either view, average or sorcerer, for one’s own is to deviate from the path with heart (center or middle way between the two). In this pitting, to retreat back to the common view of the average man and say the hell with it all or never venture from it to begin is useless.  To adopt the sorcerer’s view is equally as futile and though very exciting will prevent one from arriving at the totality of oneself.  Even DJ’s teacher and benefactor missed the boat here succumbing to the sorcerer’s view but little old Carlos made it thanks to the impeccability of DJ and Genaro. This is like slipping between 1st and 2nd attention, coarsely put.
“Here is where I varied from the tradition. After a lifelong struggle I know that what matters is not to learn a new description but to arrive at the totality of oneself.” DJ TOP
This is extremely important. DJ is fully steeped in this tradition. He is a Nagual of this tradition and part of that particular lineage. His predecessors did not achieve what he is now outlining. Which really begs the question, if his teacher and benefactor did not show him this and as yet we have no reason to believe the Tenant showed him this either, what is it that DJ discovered that led him move in a new direction? He is basically saying this sorcery tradition of his predecessors that has brought him this far and its proponents both old and new seers are at a dead end! Now he begins to critique the view of sorcery itself and he deviates from the sorcery tradition and heads in a new direction. The view of sorcery (old or new) though more expansive than the view or an average man and certainly more beguiling does not offer freedom or the totality of oneself.
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#10
Now if you have followed this so far what DJ discovered is the totality of himself. Now because we don’t have a clear understanding of what this actually is and means it is not quite apparent why this is such a big deal for DJ. and why it necessitated that he deviate from the tradition of his predecessors. This is different than anything else that is talked about in the sorcerer’s tradition of that lineage. Now please understand from the literature we know that Naguals and their parties have been leaving the everyday world of 1st attention,  but that is not what DJ is talking about. Remember according to DJ, his predecessors never achieved their totality! Seers both old and new have been leaving this planet for alternate realities for a very long time. It is the aim of some in this forum that at the point of death or before, they wish to transfer their awareness to their energy body, dart past the Eagle and go from there. This is pure second attention stuff and certainly not third attention.
“He said that the 2nd attention is also called the left side awareness; and it is the vastest field that one can imagine, so vast in fact that it seems limitless. I wouldn’t stray into it for anything in this world. It is a quagmire so complex and bizarre that sober seers go into it only under the strictest conditions” DJ FFW
 Achieving this Totality that DJ speaks of is third attention and it is not something that lies “beyond” 2nd attention out there in the many varied layers, no, it is right here right now and it lies between 1st and 2nd attention. It is a supreme accomplishment to achieve this now without becoming disembodied awareness. The cosmic vagina lies between the legs of 1st and 2nd attention lol.
“The mastery of awareness must develop to its natural end, which is ....to extend the glow of awareness beyond the bounds of the luminous cocoon in one single stroke” DJ FFW
“We can better explain this by saying that the task of the teacher is to wipe clean one half of the bubble and reorder everything on the other half. The benefactor’s task then is to open the bubble on the side that has been cleaned. ONCE THE SEAL HAS BEEN BROKEN THE WARRIOR IS NEVER THE SAME. HE HAS THEN COMMAND OF HIS TOTALITY.
Half of the is the ultimate center of reason , the tonal. The other half is the ultimate center of will, the nagual. That is the order that should prevail; any other arrangement is nonsensical and petty, because it goes against our nature; it robs us of our magical heritage and reduces us to nothing.” DJ TOP
Now as far as I can see here, this is the difference, this cleaning and re-ordering the elements of the bubble of perception in preparation for breaking the seal, thus extending the glow of awareness beyond the bounds of the luminous cocoon and gaining Totality.  
Something that is commonly reported when this happens, is that people cannot tell if they are in the body or out of the body. Until the seal is broken seers both old and new have encounters with the nagual in the left side awareness and shift between 1st and 2nd attention and back or never back. When the seal is broken human form is dropped, as it was very body (form) orientated, and in DJ’s words the wings of perception unfold and embrace simultaneously the tonal and the nagual, without all the back and forth.
Now what one ultimately does with the command of their Totality while they live out their lives here is another issue. And it matters not whether one is successful or not with the tasks they wait upon.
“Here is where I varied from the tradition. After a lifelong struggle I know that what matters is not to learn a new description (sorcery) but to arrive at the totality of oneself.” DJ TOP
Reply
#11
Lex wrote.
“I gave you enough of the sorcerer’s view without letting you get hooked by it. I said that only if one pits the two views against each other can one weasel between them to arrive at the real world. I meant that one can arrive at the totality of oneself only when one fully understands that the world is merely a view, regardless of whether that view belongs to an ordinary man or to a sorcerer.” TOPDJ need’s CC to be informed of the sorcerer’s view but he does not want to lose him to that view, he does not want him to become a sorcerer. But it is necessary for CC to know of the sorcerer’s view, preferably through the eyes of a new seer.  Once this view is established it can then be pitted, not against another (old) view of sorcery, like I first thought, old against the new, but against the common view of an average person. This pitting is not engaged for the purpose of establishing a superiority of or preference for the sorcerer’s view but for the purpose of “weaseling” between the two. To adopt either view, average or sorcerer, for one’s own is to deviate from the path with heart (center or middle way between the two). In this pitting, to retreat back to the common view of the average man and say the hell with it all or never venture from it to begin is useless.  To adopt the sorcerer’s view is equally as futile and though very exciting will prevent one from arriving at the totality of oneself.  Even DJ’s teacher and benefactor missed the boat here succumbing to the sorcerer’s view but little old Carlos made it thanks to the impeccability of DJ and Genaro. This is like slipping between 1st and 2nd attention, coarsely put.
“Here is where I varied from the tradition. After a lifelong struggle I know that what matters is not to learn a new description but to arrive at the totality of oneself.” DJ TOP
This is extremely important. DJ is fully steeped in this tradition. He is a Nagual of this tradition and part of that particular lineage. His predecessors did not achieve what he is now outlining. Which really begs the question, if his teacher and benefactor did not show him this and as yet we have no reason to believe the Tenant showed him this either, what is it that DJ discovered that led him move in a new direction? He is basically saying this sorcery tradition of his predecessors that has brought him this far and its proponents both old and new seers are at a dead end! Now he begins to critique the view of sorcery itself and he deviates from the sorcery tradition and heads in a new direction. The view of sorcery (old or new) though more expansive than the view or an average man and certainly more beguiling does not offer freedom or the totality of oneself.
Good subject Lex,CC had to be shown and enter into another world view in order to experience and understand that another world view was even possible. Don Juan told him early on that that new world view was just as illusory as the ordinary man's view.The trick was to slip between the two. Whether it is "between" or "beyond" is irrelevant in my opinion. It's all right here anyway.
Reply
#12
CC had to be shown and enter into another world view in order to experience and understand that another world view was even possible. Don Juan told him early on that that new world view was just as illusory as the ordinary man's view.The trick was to slip between the two. Whether it is "between" or "beyond" is irrelevant in my opinion. It's all right here anyway. Bob May
But if you say “Its all right here anyway” and then say its “beyond” this can be a little confusing. That’s like saying its beyond “here”.  But I do  know what you are getting at Bob.
The other reason I wish to refrain from the word beyond in this regard is: For those that have spent years becoming familiar with the sorcerer’s view and practices, the sorcerer’s view and life is seen as an attainment beyond that of an average man.  2nd attention is often thought of as beyond 1st attention, the nagual beyond the tonal etc. This fosters the opinion that the sorcerer’s view is superior to that of an average man.
This sorcerer’s view is then further extrapolated. As we have heard countless times 3rd attention is considered something that is beyond 2nd attention in the manner that 2nd attention is beyond 1st attention. It is thought that 3rd attention is about transition to an energy body at the point of death or before. Now an average man is hardly going to be the one thinking about how to make this transition of awareness to an energy body and leave the planet or continue his awareness after death without relinquishing it. No that seems to be the exclusive consideration of a sorcerer. And I just wish to reiterate here that sorcerer’s old and new have been doing just that for centuries and it is only an accomplishment of 2nd attention. And as we know from DJ he does not consider this freedom or the totality of oneself as he says his predecessors did not attain this!
So for DJ at least there is a distinction between sorcery and what he is advocating. If one follows the practices of sorcerers only then the best you can hope for is the energy body option. But if you have gained just enough of that sorcerer’s view now and can clearly distinguish it from that of an average man there is another option but that other option is not the ultimate attainment of 2nd attention and its practices! It is not the next level after everything that can be achieved  through sorcery and 2nd attention has been attained. It is not a reward for being a competent sorcerer. This option is available to “weasels” that see clearly these two views and opt for neither!
What is profound here is that not only is DJ a master at pitting these two views against each other with all the sobriety of a new seer but he also knows how to crack another’s bubble of perception so that the wings of perception will unfold and they can see their totality! Something apparently his predecessors did not know how to do.
I think “the blow that can’t parried” for the one that opens themselves to the sorcerers explanation is that for all those years after hearing about the sorcerer’s view one thought they were becoming a sorcerer by doing all those things prescribed by that view, at least Carlos did. And now it turns out according to DJ that was never the goal.
Reply
#13
Hi Lex,
You brought some things to mind that I would like to comment on without getting too far off your train of thought.DJ spoke about pitting one description against another. To do this we must either recognise differences or similarities.
What you said about gazing is a big key, I think. When turning off the internal dialog, DJ said it was not just a matter of curtailing words. It was deeper than that. I had thought about that a lot over the years and observed myself and how my mind works during silence. I also saw the need to gaze as part of that whole process of silence. Many times just gazing while sitting and turning off the internal dialog. The appearance of things changes when I do (or not do) a certain thing. I have come to think of it as "Judging" or "Pre-judging". It may seem like a small thing but it seems to me to be part and parcel of reaching that silence. What seems to happen is that depth perception is turned off and everything in my view becomes "equal." Nothing matters more or less than anything else and the world becomes just a screen of blotches of colors.
I may be making little sense here but it seems like this "state of mind" brought on by gazing and not judging is at least one of the similarities that we can discern between the first and second attention.To "not do what we have always done", I think is the way Don Juan put it.This judgement is the compulsion that we build our world view with. Whatever that world view might be. This compulsion to judge is what we can discern by pitting one view against another.This judgement is also, close to what DJ said was referring to when speaking about sneaking or weaseling between the worlds. It is what they both have in common. We begin to recognise it by Gazing, Not Doing and Turning off the Internal Dialog.It may be what Jesus was referring to when he said, "Let not your left hand know what your right hand is doing." “Last night you witnessed not only the indescribable nagual but also the indescribable tonal. The last piece of the sorcerer’s explanation says that reason is merely reflecting an outside order, and that reason knows nothing about that order; it cannot explain, in the same way it cannot explain the nagual.  Reason can only witness the effects of the tonal, but never could it understand it, or unravel it.”“Sorcerer’s do the same thing with their will. They say that through the will they can witness the effects of the nagual. I can add now that through reason, no matter what we do with it, or how we do it, we are merely witnessing the effects of the tonal. In both cases there is no hope, ever, to understand or to explain what is that we are witnessing. DJ TOP
Just some thoughts.
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#14
Bob:
What seems to
happen is that depth perception is turned off and everything in my view
becomes "equal." Nothing matters more or less than anything else and
the world becomes just a screen of blotches of colors.
Jessica;
'depth perception' --the value in finding meaning and labeling it with value
'screen of blotches of colors'--I find that even the colors dissipate and the screen becomes black and eventually void
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#15
Jessicar wrote:Bob:
What seems to
happen is that depth perception is turned off and everything in my view
becomes "equal." Nothing matters more or less than anything else and
the world becomes just a screen of blotches of colors.
Jessica;
'depth perception' --the value in finding meaning and labeling it with value
'screen of blotches of colors'--I find that even the colors dissipate and the screen becomes black and eventually void
 
Inside the black, I still see minuscule buzzing dots of colour.... fwiw.
Potato, potahto lol
Reply
#16
Well If one can accept that DJ did indeed “vary from tradition” in regard to sorcery then the next step is to try and discern what direction he was heading in. But if we are to do this, it must be handled in such a way that our newly arrived at conclusions, don’t just deposit us back into the sorcerer’s view and 2nd attention objectives, which would just bring us back full circle having gone nowhere.
All are views that seem unchallengeable; and as long as you persist in using them your bubbles of perception have not been cleared and the sorcerer’s explanation will have no meaning.” DJ, TOP
Now I know that this is a tall order for the dedicated sorcerers amongst us but think of it this way. This is not the first time this tradition has stood at a crossroads like this. It has happened before and from that we have the new seers distinguishing themselves from the old seers and their path. For those new seers at that time they were following a new task set by the Eagle, a new mood, a new direction. They stumbled, yes stumbled, upon this because they were dissatisfied with the old seers, especially after seeing what happened to them after the invasion. It started them questioning. It appeared to them that something had gone wrong. The old seers had somehow become less relevant. The new seers set about correcting the errors of the old seers.  So I think of this as a great opportunity, expressing itself in exciting times.
We don’t have much to go on though. We do know that it culminates in the “bubble of perception being cracked open” and the “wings of perception unfolding” to embrace the nagual and the tonal simultaneously without the back and forth between the two.
Any sorcery techniques that are employed are done so within a larger context and not just for their own sake as expressions of what people think it means to be a sorcerer. That larger context, being the clearing of the island of the tonal. This island sweeping took a master like DJ 14 years to accomplish as he aided his apprentice in the preparation. This results in a new order or energetic configuration of the tonal.
Half is the ultimate center of reason , the tonal. The other half is the ultimate center of will, the nagual. That is the order that should prevail; any other arrangement is nonsensical and petty, because it goes against our nature; it robs us of our magical heritage and reduces us to nothing.” DJ TOP
“By now you must have realized that cleaning and reordering the island of the tonal means regrouping all its elements on the side of reason. My task has been to disarrange your ordinary view, not to destroy it but to force it to rally on the side of reason.” DJ TOP   DJ knew how to recognize these elements and how to regroup them not only for himself but also how to do this in an apprentice!
Reply
#17
Hi Enchantra and Jessicar,
I said it was hard to explain.
My visual/perception is not was I was talking about, really. What I described seeing is just a "signal" that I have noticed when I am touching on that mode of thought or mind that I have come to think of as "Not Judging." That, to me, is the important thing.
The "opposite" of that mode of mind (Judging) is what we do all of the time, so we do not notice it.
In the beginning stages of his apprenticeship CC was directed by DJ to look at the shadows between the leaves instead of the leaves themselves. It requires a certain suspension of that faculty of mind.
If you see potatoes,...I'm fine with that.
Reply
#18
What seems to
happen is that depth perception is turned off and everything in my view
becomes "equal." Nothing matters more or less than anything else and
the world becomes just a screen of blotches of colors.I may be
making little sense here but it seems like this "state of mind" brought
on by gazing and not judging is at least one of the similarities that we
can discern between the first and second attention. Bob
Now Bob, when you are in this "state of mind" does this evoke 2nd attention, as with Taisha and the leaves, or is it something else?
Reply
#19
lex icon wrote:

Well If one can accept that DJ did indeed “vary from tradition” in regard to sorcery then the next step is to try and discern what direction he was heading in. But if we are to do this, it must be handled in such a way that our newly arrived at conclusions, don’t just deposit us back into the sorcerer’s view and 2nd attention objectives, which would just bring us back full circle having gone nowhere.
"Vary from tradition"...well you know , this is like the same dilmna that Jesus had when he explained the meaning of  what happens when you pour "new wine "( new seers)  into old wine skins.  (old seers) The miracle ( or the seemingly  magic) it would take of changing water into wine. Even if you pour it very slowly, very gently it will still explode. It was unchangable in the eyes of the Pharisees and Sadduccess.    All are views that seem unchallengeable; and as long as you persist in using them your bubbles of perception have not been cleared and the sorcerer’s explanation will have no meaning.” DJ, TOPWeeNow I know that this is a tall order for the dedicated sorcerers amongst us but think of it this way. This is not the first time this tradition has stood at a crossroads like this. It has happened before and from that we have the new seers distinguishing themselves from the old seers and their path. For those new seers at that time they were following a new task set by the Eagle, a new mood, a new direction. They stumbled, yes stumbled, upon this because they were dissatisfied with the old seers, especially after seeing what happened to them after the invasion. It started them questioning. It appeared to them that something had gone wrong. The old seers had somehow become less relevant. The new seers set about correcting the errors of the old seers.  So I think of this as a great opportunity, expressing itself in exciting times. 
 The new mood/ direction is likened to the expansion and meaning of the "new covenant " - a new mood and direction everytime we eat and drink and do this in rememberance of Jesus. A gradual change taken place never the less.
We don’t have much to go on though. We do know that it culminates in the “bubble of perception being cracked open” and the “wings of perception  unfolding” to embrace the nagual and the tonal simultaneously without the back and forth between the two.
Within the twinkling of an eye!  the  bubble burst and so can the AP shift and stay permenately! Q.)What is the attention span of a bubble? .. A.) On a good day the rate of expansion and the rate of time varies. Tonal and nagual combining here.
Any sorcery techniques that are employed are done so within a larger context and not just for their own sake as expressions of what people think it means to be a sorcerer. That larger context, being the clearing of the island of the tonal. This island sweeping took a master like DJ 14 years to accomplish as he aided his apprentice in the preparation. This results in a new order or energetic configuration of the tonal.
It took the Apostle Paul 14 years of preparation to meet this total clean sweep.  Half is the ultimate center of reason , the tonal. The other half is the ultimate center of will, the nagual. That is the order that should prevail; any other arrangement is nonsensical and petty, because it goes against our nature; it robs us of our magical heritage and reduces us to nothing.” DJ TOP
“By now you must have realized that cleaning and reordering the island of the tonal means regrouping all its elements on the side of reason. My task has been to disarrange your ordinary view, not to destroy it but to force it to rally on the side of reason.” DJ TOP   
DJ knew how to recognize these elements and how to regroup them not only for himself but also how to do this in an apprentice!The cosmic vagina 's vulva was created equal on both sides.. ( meaning the tonal and nagual) AND without form!  I urge you to rally on the side of reason before you should think I don't know what I am talking about.
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#20
You are raising a very vital point here, Lex…stick with it regardless of what others here say. 


 

When one gets that it all has only ever been a description, one is brought to a point of pointlessness.  In other words, one gets that one could have chosen ANY description and in that suddenly all descriptions become possible…and in all descriptions suddenly becoming available one is in that spot that you are pointing to. 


 

However, that alone does not lead to the totality of man.  Fwiw, consider the description of the totality of man being in command of absolutely ALL that is possible for man to be in control of.  One such aspect is description.  Most people are bound to their descriptions as though their very love of them serve as chains.  To be in that spot where all descriptions are available one is in the seat of command of which description to choose…and one can choose any of them at any time for any reason or even for no reason at all. 


 

Reaching the totality of man is commandeering the seat of command for all possibilities…for example, the command of all levels of awareness possible for the human form…or the command of all energetic possibilities available to the human form. 


 

However, be forewarned, when you do manage to weasel yourself into that spot your friends will start calling you crazy.
Reply
#21
lex icon wrote:
What seems to happen is that depth perception is turned off and everything in my view becomes "equal." Nothing matters more or less than anything else and the world becomes just a screen of blotches of colors.I may be making little sense here but it seems like this "state of mind" brought on by gazing and not judging is at least one of the similarities that we can discern between the first and second attention. Bob
Now Bob, when you are in this "state of mind" does this evoke 2nd attention, as with Taisha and the leaves, or is it something else?
I would say it enables us to experience either second or third attention. Which we experience is dependent upon what we believe and/or what we have experienced previously.What I am describing here may be staying close to the doorway out of the first attention. It may be sliding over to the will side of the bubble, maybe.DJ told little of what second attention is and even less of what third is.
When I stopped the world I was in an unbelieveably chaotic state for several weeks. Living in two worlds at once, (the first and second attentions) and each day it would be a completely different experience.After that I went through an  apprenticeship with a Christian Qabalist and had some Spirtual experiences. Some during meditations and some during waking awareness.
Each experience was accompanied by periods of living in two worlds at once again. But these periods of 1st and second attentions became less and less chaotic and more and more interspersed with, what I believe are, third attention aspects.
If there is a compulsion to make a description of the first and second attentions it would also hold true for the third attention. This, I believe, is the Kingdom of Heaven. Again a case of living in two worlds at once. And I believe that this compulsion comes from beyond us.
From the Eternal.I think it is of more importance where the knowledge, experiences or information are coming from and what those experiences are telling us than what the experience is.
Reply
#22
I would say it enables us to experience either second or third attention. Which we experience is dependent upon what we believe and/or what we have experienced previously. BobDJ seems to be saying that 3rd attention depends on the wings of perception unfolding after the bubble of perception is cracked and has little if anything to do with belief.
Correct me if I am wrong but you seem to accept what DJ is saying about the 2 views being descriptions and are really suggesting that if they are descriptions as DJ says then the way past the descriptions is to stop the internal dialogue.
But if that is what you mean (don’t want to put words in your mouth) we must remember that DJ taught CC about stopping the internal dialogue, which CC did on many occasions, long before Genaro cracked his bubble of perception.
Then reading what you said;
When I stopped the world I was in an unbelieveably chaotic state for several weeks. Living in two worlds at once, (the first and second attentions) and each day it would be a completely different experience.After that I went through an  apprenticeship with a Christian Qabalist and had some Spirtual experiences. Some during meditations and some during waking awareness. Bob
You associate this with stopping the world. I associate it with cracking the bubble. All I can say is I totally identify with the living in two “worlds” at once part. That was my experience too. It was acute and continuous for many months before I became accustomed to it.
What I find very interesting though is DJ knows how to do this to another person! I do not. I am not really sure just how it happened to me. I was aware of my preparation though I was not seeking “bubble cracking” lol.
DJ mentions “regrouping the elements” of the tonal island. I think this is very important. Has anyone considered what are the elements of the tonal that need regrouping (according to DJ) and how are they rallied on the side of reason?
Reply
#23
This “pitting” of the two views against each. I see it more of DJ pitting the sorcerer’s view against the view of the average man.
It is not that he is advocating the sorcerer’s view, as I am sure Carlos and many of us here thought. Again this is a didactic device of DJ’s. Carlos was so fixed in the view of an average man. DJ had tried blasting him with power plants to try and dislodge him but Carlos proved very resilient.  No the sorcerer’s view was just another tool that DJ used to loosen Carlos’s conviction concerning the view of the world, part of a strategy that lasted 14 years!
The “trick” was that Carlos thought he was becoming a sorcerer! I think we have all been tricked by DJ in this regard. We too thought he was teaching Carlos how to become a sorcerer and I dare say that some of us thought his teachings were teaching us how to do the same. This could be a tough pill to swallow.
Reply
#24
lex icon wrote:

I would say it enables us to experience either second or third attention. Which we experience is dependent upon what we believe and/or what we have experienced previously. Bob
DJ seems to be saying that 3rd attention depends on the wings of perception unfolding after the bubble of perception is cracked and has little if anything to do with belief.
Correct me if I am wrong but you seem to accept what DJ is saying about the 2 views being descriptions and are really suggesting that if they are descriptions as DJ says then the way past the descriptions is to stop the internal dialogue.
DJ said it was the most powerful or important thing he had taught Carlos. It was also taught by my own teacher. By practicing "Body Awareness" (being able to sit for hours completely comfortable and not move a muscle) and then later, "Mind Awareness" (being able to sit for hours without a thought or only one thought), was his method of teaching meditation. These were taught as the foundation of meditation."Be still and know that I am God" was quoted over an over.
But if that is what you mean (don’t want to put words in your mouth) we must remember that DJ taught CC about stopping the internal dialogue, which CC did on many occasions, long before Genaro cracked his bubble of perception.
The method used to see beyond either description. It is a method. Mechanics. If the door is opened you become aware of another description whether you understand it or not.Stopping the internal dialog is a method that leads to the experience of stopping the world. Carlos got glymses of somethings outside of the first attention all along the way. He thought he had stopped the world.He asked DJ about this once and DJ's answer was that stopping the world was something that came a little at a time and then all at once.It takes time. For me, I practiced stopping the internal dialog for over two years every chance I got. When driving walking or anything else I was doing. If I found myself talking inside I would stop. I was pretty much a hermit. I still do that. If I don't have to talk, I try not to. 
Then reading what you said;
When I stopped the world I was in an unbelieveably chaotic state for several weeks. Living in two worlds at once, (the first and second attentions) and each day it would be a completely different experience.After that I went through an  apprenticeship with a Christian Qabalist and had some Spirtual experiences. Some during meditations and some during waking awareness. Bob
You associate this with stopping the world. I associate it with cracking the bubble. All I can say is I totally identify with the living in two “worlds” at once part. That was my experience too. It was acute and continuous for many months before I became accustomed to it.
This is, I believe, the story of the flood. Lifted high above the world of ordinary men, surrounded by animals, the reaffirmations too much to deal with. The third eye (window in the top of the Ark) is opened and a raven is let loose. (it is a negative experience) It is only later that the dove is let loose and returns. This is our description either negative or positive elements reflecting back to us. Our world view.After forty days and nights (stability reached) we are deposited on a mountain top. We are back on earth but with a new perspective. It is a new earth because it will never be the same to us again.It is the Baptism of water. The first initiation.
What I find very interesting though is DJ knows how to do this to another person! I do not. I am not really sure just how it happened to me. I was aware of my preparation though I was not seeking “bubble cracking” lol.
I also find it interesting. I think the preparation was all I could do at that time lacking any real guide. I was trying to stop the world. It was the goal as far as I was concerned. But to understand what it was and how all encompassing it was, I had no idea and could not have had any idea before it happened. It was all I could do to get back to some semblance of normalcy. I knew I would do it again but also that I needed some kind of philosophy and or guide and teacher in order to survive it.
DJ mentions “regrouping the elements” of the tonal island. I think this is very important. Has anyone considered what are the elements of the tonal that need regrouping (according to DJ) and how are they rallied on the side of reason?I think the elements are our world view which would be determined by our philosophy. What we believe is true. If that philosophy was put together by someone who had only experienced the first or second attention, it is no guide at all. Because then we would be stuck in the second attention where DJ said he would not like to be stuck.
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#25
lex icon wrote:

This “pitting” of the two views against each. I see it more of DJ pitting the sorcerer’s view against the view of the average man.
I agree that was his strategy. It never was the goal for CC to become a sorcerer. He was leading him to become a man of knowledge. But, at the same time maybe he was not. Carlos went on to write books that influenced many people. Maybe the whole CC legacy was for those who would read the books and had nothing at all to do with what would happen to Carlos.
Power or the Spirit or the nagual directed DJ to take Carlos on as an apprentice. What was the purpose of that? A clown introducing a clown, I believe is how DJ put it. So the first of the books, his doctoral disertation, was published by other clowns in order for it to become widely read.Maybe it was all done for the benefit of Enchantra, or Lex or Lone Wolf.
It is not that he is advocating the sorcerer’s view, as I am sure Carlos and many of us here thought. Again this is a didactic device of DJ’s. Carlos was so fixed in the view of an average man. DJ had tried blasting him with power plants to try and dislodge him but Carlos proved very resilient.  No the sorcerer’s view was just another tool that DJ used to loosen Carlos’s conviction concerning the view of the world, part of a strategy that lasted 14 years!
No, he was not advocating the sorcerer's worldview at all. Carlos was juat as hard to move out of the sorcerer's worldview as he was to move out of the ordinary man's view. I think he never "Got it." But at least he wrote it down so that others could.
The “trick” was that Carlos thought he was becoming a sorcerer! I think we have all been tricked by DJ in this regard. We too thought he was teaching Carlos how to become a sorcerer and I dare say that some of us thought his teachings were teaching us how to do the same. This could be a tough pill to swallow.
Depends on what you mean by a sorcerer's view and tricked. He had to experience the second attention.Early on in the books DJ said that a sorcerer was someone who had stopped the world. That was and is his definition of Sorcerer. Later he said that bringing Carlos into this strange environment with all of it's cultural aspects and out in the strange environment of the desert and the witches, etc., was to shake up his world.
If a person has not stopped the world, they have not been immersed in what DJ called the "sorcerer's world." Reaffirmations and the awareness of inorganic beings, and all kinds of other phenomena  happen equally within any cultural or subcultural background.
It is the experience itself, stripped of all the cultural accoutrements, that we are to hold up against the experience of first attention.To hold something against something else we are looking for similarities and or differences.
Here are some differences;
In the first attention, coincidences (two things happening at exactly the same time or place) are "accidental".In the second attention coincidences are meaningful.In the first attention people are just people.In the second attention people are something else. (See Genero's description of his journey to Ixtlan)
Here are some similarities; The first attention can be a very predatory environment and it is best to know what places to avoid and what places to seek.Second attention is the same.The awakening to the second attention from the first attention comes a little at a time,..and then all at once.The awakening from the second attention to the third is the same.
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