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Hi Lex,Quoting you here;
"DJ would have us believe that at birth our attention is fluid and our perception wide open. But we are told what it is we are perceiving, as if the ones telling us actually know, and slowly but surely our “bubble of perception” closes, defined by a description. Once attention has been sealed within this bubble caught by the description, self reflection is established but what “we” don’t realize is, the description is this reflection. Any ideas we have about our “self” that appears to be observing the reflection is merely the refractive activity of attention that is caught or fixed in this bubble. This is difficult to explain and see. So, how ever you come to terms with what DJ is saying about this is fine. There are many different ways of describing this from various traditions. For now just understand that the view from “inside” the bubble of perception prevents us from seeing the totality of ourselves. It is useless to talk about what this totality is, it has to be seen for oneself, however what we can say is; it is not what is perceived by a closed bubble of perception"
Just a little evidence of the above from Wikipedia;
The term infant is derived from the Latin word infans, meaning "unable to speak" or "speechless."
Lu 18:15
And they brought unto him also infants, that he would touch them: but when his disciples saw it, they rebuked them.
Lu 18:16
But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.
Lu 18:17
Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.The defining of the description of the world (first attention) of an infant (Not speaking) child begins at speaking.
Lu 19:40
And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out.Now this last quote seems to indicate that the undoing of that description, making it possible for "stones to speak" (Becoming aware of reaffirmations, etc.), is dependant upon reversing the process by once again practicing silence as we did as an infant.But not merely dropping the words. An infant looks and doesn't define in any way, shape or form until he/she begins to define by naming things.That is the lack of judgement I have mentioned. You look at something with the internal dialog turned off and make no judgements at all. As Don Juan put it, it is more than a matter of merely curtailing the words.
There is also the fact that there seems to be a difference in Jesus' description of "seeing" the kingdom and "entering" the kingdom.That may be a description of catching glimses of the third attention and actually living there, respectively. I'm not positive about that but it seems to hold true.
Joh 3:3
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:4
Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Joh 3:5
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
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Bob May wrote:
Hi Lex,Quoting you here;
"DJ would have us believe that at birth our attention is fluid and our perception wide open. But we are told what it is we are perceiving, as if the ones telling us actually know, and slowly but surely our “bubble of perception” closes, defined by a description. Once attention has been sealed within this bubble caught by the description, self reflection is established but what “we” don’t realize is, the description is this reflection. Any ideas we have about our “self” that appears to be observing the reflection is merely the refractive activity of attention that is caught or fixed in this bubble. This is difficult to explain and see. So, how ever you come to terms with what DJ is saying about this is fine. There are many different ways of describing this from various traditions. For now just understand that the view from “inside” the bubble of perception prevents us from seeing the totality of ourselves. It is useless to talk about what this totality is, it has to be seen for oneself, however what we can say is; it is not what is perceived by a closed bubble of perception"
Just a little evidence of the above from Wikipedia;
The term infant is derived from the Latin word infans, meaning "unable to speak" or "speechless."
Lu 18:15
And they brought unto him also infants, that he would touch them: but when his disciples saw it, they rebuked them.
Lu 18:16
But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.
Lu 18:17
Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.The defining of the description of the world (first attention) of an infant (Not speaking) child begins at speaking.
Lu 19:40
And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out.Now this last quote seems to indicate that the undoing of that description, making it possible for "stones to speak" (Becoming aware of reaffirmations, etc.), is dependant upon reversing the process by once again practicing silence as we did as an infant.But not merely dropping the words. An infant looks and doesn't define in any way, shape or form until he/she begins to define by naming things.That is the lack of judgement I have mentioned. You look at something with the internal dialog turned off and make no judgements at all. As Don Juan put it, it is more than a matter of merely curtailing the words.
There is also the fact that there seems to be a difference in Jesus' description of "seeing" the kingdom and "entering" the kingdom.That may be a description of catching glimses of the third attention and actually living there, respectively. I'm not positive about that but it seems to hold true.
Joh 3:3
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:4
Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Joh 3:5
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. Jesus taught Nicodemus, a member of the Sanhedrin , the elite Jewish council. The Sanhedrin's perception of a new and different teaching demonstrated by Jesus was not tolerated or to be accepted by this Jewish hierarchy. The metanoia-change of mind of perception is what Jesus was showing happens suddenly with the knocking and full manifestation of the Spirit. Intention, knowledge and revelation of the 3rd Attention is experience within the everyday reality. This is what residence inside the kingdom of God might mean.
The permanent shift in perception alters descriptions of everything how the world, people, family is perceived.My favorite example was in Tales of Power when CC was stopping the world of descriptions. He was remembering what it was like being an infant and how the world appear without having any description in it. I will try to find this.
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From Tales of Power "Wings of Perception"chapter.
...my state of exultation was so intense at that moment that I wanted to weep, or stay there forever. But some force, or tension, or something undefinable began to pull me. Suddenly I found myself out of the structure, still lying on my back. The giant girl was there,but there was another being with her, a woman so big that she reached to the sky and eclipsed the sun. Compared to her the giant girl was just a little girl. The big woman was angry; she grabbed the structure by one of its columns, lifted it up, turned it upside down, and set it on the floor. It was a chair!
That realization was like a catalyst: it triggered some overwhelming perceptions. I went through a series of images that were disconnected but could be made to stand as a sequence. In successive flashes I saw or realized that the magnificent and incomprehensible floor was a straw mat; the yellow sky was the stucco ceiling of a room; the sun was a light bulb. The structure that evoked such rapture in me was a chair that a child had turned upside down to play house. I had one more coherent and sequential vision of another mysterious architectural structure of monumental proportions. It stood all by itself. It looked almost like a shell of a pointed snail standing with its tail up. The walls were made of concave and convex plates of some strange purple material; each plate had grooves that seemed more functional than ornamental. I examined the structure meticulously and in detail and found that it was like in the case of the previous one, thoroughly incomprehensible. I expected to suddenly adjust my perception to disclose the "true" nature of the structure. But nothing of the sort happened. I then had a conglomerate of alien inextricable awarenesses", or findings, about the building and its function which did not make sense, because I had no frame of reference for them. I regained my normal awareness all of a sudden. Don Juan and don Genero were next to me. I was tired. I looked for my watch; it was gone. Don Juan and don Genero giggled in unison. Don Juan said that I should not worry about time and that I should concentrate on following certain recommendations that don Genero had made to me. I turned to don Genero and he made a joke. He said that the most important recommendation was that I should learn to write with my finger, to save on pencils and to show off.
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The “trick” was that Carlos thought he was becoming a sorcerer! I think we have all been tricked by DJ in this regard. We too thought he was teaching Carlos how to become a sorcerer and I dare say that some of us thought his teachings were teaching us how to do the same. This could be a tough pill to swallow. Lex
Depends on what you mean by a sorcerer's view and tricked. He had to experience the second attention.Early on in the books DJ said that a sorcerer was someone who had stopped the world. That was and is his definition of Sorcerer. Later he said that bringing Carlos into this strange environment with all of it's cultural aspects and out in the strange environment of the desert and the witches, etc., was to shake up his world. Bob
Yes, but it is you who is equating your “stopping the world” and what that means to “cracking the bubble of perception”. I am not. I think DJ uses the term sorcerer loosely much as he does with the term Eagle. At some point it became convenient to say sorcerer, yet all along it was part of his strategy. I have no doubts that CC experienced 2nd attention and experienced it very profoundly. And because his wings of perception unfolded 3rd attention too!
“Don’t take it so seriously,’ he said, laughing. “IT was very enjoyable for me to get into all that ****. and it was even more enjoyable because I knew that I was doing it for your benefit.”
“For my benefit, Don Juan? what kind of aberration is this?”
“Yes for your benefit. I tricked you by holding your attention on items of your world which held a profound fascination for you, and you swallowed it hook line and sinker. All I needed was to get your undivided attention. But how could I have done that when you had such an undisciplined spirit? You yourself told me time and time again that you stayed with me because you found what I said about the world fascinating. What you didn’t know how to express was that the fascination that you felt was based on the fact that you vaguely recognized every element I was talking about . You thought that the vagueness was, of course, shamanism, and you went for it meaning you stayed.” Wheel of Time.
What I think CC means by sorcerers' view, is the world of sorcery that DJ introduced him to, a world that seems preposterous to an average man.
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If we could I would like to focus on how DJ "varied from tradition". I think this is key and of profound importance.
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lex icon wrote:
Yes, but it is you who is equating your “stopping the world” and what that means to “cracking the bubble of perception”. I am not.
You misunderstand me. I think the opening of the bubble of perception came much later than stopping the world. I don't remember Carlos' giving a description of his stopping the world experience other than mentioning he was in a very distraught condition and didn't go to see Don Juan for a long period of time. I cannot even say which book that was, but that was my conclusion at the time I read it.I look at my experience of stopping the world because of Don Juan's description. "It comes a little at a time and all at once."
I think DJ uses the term sorcerer loosely much as he does with the term Eagle. At some point it became convenient to say sorcerer, yet all along it was part of his strategy. I have no doubts that CC experienced 2nd attention and experienced it very profoundly. And because his wings of perception unfolded 3rd attention too!
I agree, he used his terms in various ways at various times. That is what I meant when I said, It depends what you meant by the term sorcerer. I also believe he experienced the second attention many times. And third also, but I have my doubts about a permanent change in him.
What I think CC means by sorcerers' view, is the world of sorcery that DJ introduced him to, a world that seems preposterous to an average man.
So, I'll take that to mean you are speaking of both the cultural first attention aspects and the aspects dealing with those elements not available to average men and women.
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ninth octave wrote:
Hi Ninth,
""Jesus taught Nicodemus, a member of the Sanhedrin , the elite Jewish council. The Sanhedrin's perception of a new and different teaching demonstrated by Jesus was not tolerated or to be accepted by this Jewish hierarchy. The metanoia-change of mind of perception is what Jesus was showing happens suddenly with the knocking and full manifestation of the Spirit. Intention, knowledge and revelation of the 3rd Attention is experience within the everyday reality. This is what residence inside the kingdom of God might mean.""
Yes, I think that is what "Entering the Kingdom" means as opposed to "Seeing the Kingdom." The first, (seeing) is merely glimses, the second (entering) is permanent.It seems to be the same situation as was going from first to second attention. First glimses, then stopping the world, or "fully immersed" in second attention. Your entire world becomes "flooded."
The permanent shift in perception alters descriptions of everything how the world, people, family is perceived.
Something to look forward to!
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lex icon wrote:
If we could I would like to focus on how DJ "varied from tradition". I think this is key and of profound importance.
Please go on Lex. I didn't want to mess up your train of thought. I apologize for any side tracks I may have caused.
It is very good subject matter and many things come to mind while discussing it.
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The permanent shift in perception alters descriptions of everything how the world, people, family is perceived. NinthLSD had the same effect for me. I was never able to see things the same after that first trip even though the shift induced by LSD was temporary.
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So, I'll take that to mean you are speaking of both the cultural first attention aspects and the aspects dealing with those elements not available to average men and women. Bob
Simply put yes. But the first attention spans all and any cultural influence. One culture may see the world as flat another round but how they apprehend the flat or the round will be the same when handled by 1st attention.
The sorcerer’s view in general is informed by the broader possibilities of 2nd attention. The sorcerer’s view as used as a didactic device by DJ, is the sorcerer’s view in general tempered by the rigorous discipline and sobriety of the new seers conclusions and then leveraged against the 1st attention of an average man.
The aim of this didactic leverage is not to defeat or destroy or even subjugate the 1st attention but to introduce and establish a view and array of possibilities that were previously beyond its consideration. This introduction of a new view that entertains possibilities outside of the range of the 1st attention view pressures an average man and challenges him concerning his view of the world. Even when 2nd attention is experienced directly the 1st attention still scrambles to order the world in its favor alone. 1st attention feels threatened by the expanded range of possibilities and the proponents of those possibilities not just because of the extraordinary possibilities themselves but more because of the implications associated with those possibilities. The main implication being that first attention knew nothing about this to begin with. So the absolute certainty an average man has concerning his view is undermined.
This uncertainty will first cause the average man to come to the defense of his position in the world and shore up his faltering view. The aim here is not for the teacher to defeat that view but merely to show that it is just a view, one of many. Defending that view is the task of reason and the teacher will encourage reason in its defense of this overall view, knowing that such a view is limited to begin with. (This is an art that religious dogmatism fails miserably at. Preferring instead to conquer beliefs that do not align with the preferred belief.) This is what DJ refers to as rallying the elements of the tonal around reason and isolating the will and untangling it from all the attachments that bind it. Aiding the will in this process is the warrior’s way. It is the will that responds to the admonishments of that way. Eventually the initial uncertainty turns into humility as it begins to be accepted that one’s view of the world is not absolute but quite relative and often arbitrary.
Now I stress again the purpose of all this is not to establish a preference for or superiority of a sorcerer and the view associated with a sorcerer.
“I gave you enough of the sorcerer’s view without letting you get hooked by it. I said that only if one pits the two views against each other can one weasel between them to arrive at the real world. I meant that one can arrive at the totality of oneself only when one fully understands that the world is merely a view, regardless of whether that view belongs to an ordinary man or to a sorcerer.” TOP
DJ is not advocating for just another view, even if that view is one of a sorcerer, “regardless of whether that view belongs to an ordinary man or to a sorcerer.” DJ is very clear here. He is advocating the view of the totality of one’s self and nothing less. Something his predecessors knew about but never achieved. I contend it is because they were captivated by the sorcerer’s view, as are many.
In light of this contention, “how to become a new seer” becomes irrelevant. I too thought that was what DJ was advocating as he expounded the conclusions of the new seers and critiqued the seers of antiquity.
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lex icon wrote:
I would say it enables us to experience either second or third attention. Which we experience is dependent upon what we believe and/or what we have experienced previously. Bob
DJ seems to be saying that 3rd attention depends on the wings of perception unfolding after the bubble of perception is cracked and has little if anything to do with belief.
To be born from above is a prerequisite of either "seeing" or "entering" the Kingdom.To "stop the internal dialog" is a prerequisite of experiencing either the "second attention" or "third attention.""Entering" is beyond "Seeing" the Kingdom.The "third attention" is beyond the "second attention."
Being totally immersed in the "second attention" is stopping the world. It is the first initiation of the sorcerer's apprentice. It is the goal of the apprentice as such. When an apprentice is "initiated" he/she becomes an "initiate." In this particular case, a "sorcerer." Something new has begun. This world of sorcerers (second attention) is "self reflecting." The elements of the Tonal reflect back what is believed by the initiate.Being Baptised in water (the experience, not the ceremony) is the same.
Correct me if I am wrong but you seem to accept what DJ is saying about the 2 views being descriptions and are really suggesting that if they are descriptions as DJ says then the way past the descriptions is to stop the internal dialogue.
That is the trick. The subterfuge was to hide the fact that the most important element of the teachings was "stopping the internal dialog.""Stopping the internal dialog is, the key to the sorcerer's world," he said. The rest of the activities are only props; all they do is accelerate the effect of stopping the internal dialog."He said there were two major activities or techniques used to accelerate the stopping of the internal dialog:erasing personal history and dreaming..."
But if that is what you mean (don’t want to put words in your mouth) we must remember that DJ taught CC about stopping the internal dialogue, which CC did on many occasions, long before Genaro cracked his bubble of perception.
Then reading what you said;
When I stopped the world I was in an unbelieveably chaotic state for several weeks. Living in two worlds at once, (the first and second attentions) and each day it would be a completely different experience.After that I went through an apprenticeship with a Christian Qabalist and had some Spirtual experiences. Some during meditations and some during waking awareness. Bob
You associate this with stopping the world. I associate it with cracking the bubble. All I can say is I totally identify with the living in two “worlds” at once part. That was my experience too. It was acute and continuous for many months before I became accustomed to it.
Don Juan changed his terminology of major elements of his teaching along the way. This is a trick also, in a way, to give us different viewpoints of the same elements of his teachings.I like the terms Average man, Sorcerer, and Man of Knowledge.These percieve the world in First, Second and Third attentions (or "Seeing") respectively.
"..he had rallied my interest around the idea of "seeing," which properly understood, was the act of dealing directly with the "nagual," an act that was an unavoidable end result of the teachings but an unattainable task as a task, per se." "...by making me focus my attention on a pseudo task, learning to "see"...he had outlined the direct encounter with the "nagual.""Here, I believe is a very important key to the entirety of Don Juan's teachings. To "See" is the equivalent to experiencing the Third Attention.It cannot be accomplished as a task. For lack of a better word, it "Falls on You" if you continue in the teachings which all boil down to "Stopping the Internal Dialog."
It used to bother me that whenever Jesus was asked what the Kingdom of heaven is like, he told a parable that didn't say what anything was "like" at all. Then one day it hit me. He was showing how we got there so that those who would get there would recognise what it was when it happened to them.
This is what Don Juan is doing here. "Outlining the encounter with the "nagual,"" so that those who would get there would recognise it when they got there.
Mr 4:26
And he said, So is the kingdom of God, as if a man should cast seed into the ground;
Mr 4:27
And should sleep, and rise night and day, and the seed should spring and grow up, he knoweth not how.
Mr 4:28
For the earth bringeth forth fruit of herself; first the blade, then the ear, after that the full corn in the ear.Again the idea of "..a little at a time,..and then all at once," that Don Juan said applied to "Stopping the World." Only now applied to the "third attention" or "Seeing." The "all at once" comes when you realise that you have been in it for a while and didn't realize it.
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If we could I would like to focus on how DJ "varied from tradition". I think this is key and of profound importance.
Ok.
"Here is where I varied from the tradition. After a life long struggle I know that what matters is not a new description but to arrive at the totality of oneself." DJ /TOP
When I see this statement I already know that DJ is a "seasoned" nagual. DJ obviously wise with the experienced in the knowing of how to relate and reach CC's particular personality configuration. DJ being his teacher also knows Genero would be his benefactor. Why Genero? for whatever reason it was CC who was afraid of Genero until.. lol. Did Genero see where CC's particular " ïndulgences" were holding him back from reaching his totallity. DJ was his teacher, moreso the explainer while Genero was the doer of the explanation - this set the stopping of the world view in motion.
"...a teacher had to take into consideration the personality of the apprentice, and in my case (CC ) he had to be careful because I was voilent and would have thought nothing of killing myself out of despair." TOP
I wonder what did DJ first "see" in CC when he first met him at the bus depot? DJ saw through CC's exterior and into his interior without description and all the way to seeing the completion of CC's totality.
"Since don Juan's linage could not continue due to our energetic configuration, our mission was transformed from continuing his linage into disseminating his ideas. DJ linage's ends with us. Tonal- { unity, coherence,thought} Nagual- { disintegration , impulse, feeling-the source of everything}
The aim of sorcery is to reach a state of total awareness by tapping the nagual within, thus bringing the two aspects of the universal existence into perfect harmony. Death as a counselor to give their actions the extra strength. You must live really impeccably to collect a lot of energy to use it at the moment of death to escape the real dying -the fire from within."
I am not sure who wrote this above quote I did not mark down who said this as I wrote it down on paper when researching CC. This pretty near sums up CC's intentions in his books. It may have been CC himself quoting from a magazine interview.
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lex icon wrote:
I would say it enables us to experience either second or third attention. Which we experience is dependent upon what we believe and/or what we have experienced previously. Bob
DJ seems to be saying that 3rd attention depends on the wings of perception unfolding after the bubble of perception is cracked and has little if anything to do with belief.
If, in our "philosophy", we do not have an explanation that says there is something beyond the second attention we will not experience the third. That is my point here.If you believe there is an all encompasing and incomprehensible Force that sustains all of the worlds and that has no interest in us whatsoever, then that is what you will experience.If, on the other hand, you believe this Incomprehensible Something has orchestrated your life and brought you to this point in order to reveal to you what you are experiencing, then that is what you will experience.
Correct me if I am wrong but you seem to accept what DJ is saying about the 2 views being descriptions and are really suggesting that if they are descriptions as DJ says then the way past the descriptions is to stop the internal dialogue.
Yes, I accept the idea of there being two descriptions. I do not accept that they are merely illusion.
I believe they are orchestrated by a higher Power that has our best interests in mind. In a word, both descriptions are allegorical in nature. In other words they teach us."Be still and know that I am God," is basically saying that silence is the technique to experiencing the third attention.
But if that is what you mean (don’t want to put words in your mouth) we must remember that DJ taught CC about stopping the internal dialogue, which CC did on many occasions, long before Genaro cracked his bubble of perception.
Here is another example of the term used in different ways. Most times he used the term to indicate the technique. A few times he used the term to indicate the complete collapse of our world view, which would be the culmination or outcome of making use of that technique.
Then reading what you said;
When I stopped the world I was in an unbelieveably chaotic state for several weeks. Living in two worlds at once, (the first and second attentions) and each day it would be a completely different experience.After that I went through an apprenticeship with a Christian Qabalist and had some Spirtual experiences. Some during meditations and some during waking awareness. BobYou associate this with stopping the world. I associate it with cracking the bubble. All I can say is I totally identify with the living in two “worlds” at once part. That was my experience too. It was acute and continuous for many months before I became accustomed to it.
This, I believe is the point that Don Juan said comes in every warrior's life when he has to decide whether or not to go on. He backs off and rightfully so, as Don Juan puts it. Though it did not seem the same thing as you and I experienced, Carlos had a choice to make. Don Juan brought in a worthy opponent to give Carlos a reason to stay. To help Don Juan.I did not become accustomed to it. I backed off knowing I could not survive it and to get my "feet on the ground." I also knew that I was in no way finished. But I was certain I needed something or someone to guide me through this maze.But "through the maze is wrong, too. It needed to be bypassed or made sense of. I ended up there several times after this first time. At least one time it was an even more negative an experience. But then there are beings that want to stop you whenever you are making progress. Attacks become evidence that you are making progress. And you learn how to bypass this experience with experience.What I find very interesting though is DJ knows how to do this to another person! I do not. I am not really sure just how it happened to me. I was aware of my preparation though I was not seeking “bubble cracking” lol.
Sometimes you are pulled up into it, sometimes it falls on you, sometimes you are visited and sometimes you just know things you didn't before. The preparation leaves you open to it and it seems to happen in an instant.But without that preparation we probably would not have the experience.DJ mentions “regrouping the elements” of the tonal island. I think this is very important. Has anyone considered what are the elements of the tonal that need regrouping (according to DJ) and how are they rallied on the side of reason?
All part of that preparation. The way of the warrior, the sermon on the mount. "Not doing" what comes naturally concerning the ways in which we relate to the situations life presents to us. Re-evaluating what is of importance to us and changing these things.
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Hi Ninth and Lex,
"Here is where I varied from the tradition. After a life long struggle I know that what matters is not a new description but to arrive at the totality of oneself." DJ
This has been a very fruitful study subject for me. Pieces falling into place all over the place.The story of the reunion of Joseph and the brothers of Jacob/Israel has always been in my mind the same as Don Juan's coming to the toality of oneself. The brothers are aspects of the human condition. Seeing, Hearing, Judgement, etc. Twelve in number as opposed to Don Juan's eight.
Right after this reunion the sons and Israel are given the land of Goshen (unity) by the pharoah to dwell in.At this point the sons of Pharoah are introduced into the story.
Ge 41:50
And unto Joseph were born two sons before the years of famine came, which Asenath the daughter of Potipherah priest of On bare unto him.
Ge 41:51
And Joseph called the name of the firstborn Manasseh: For God, said he, hath made me forget all my toil, and all my father's house.
Ge 41:52
And the name of the second called he Ephraim: For God hath caused me to be fruitful in the land of my affliction.Ephraim, I have laways known to mean Understanding.But it wasn't until last night that I realised what Manasseh signified. That was revealed when re-reading Tales of power.It all fits with the Bible and Qabalah and Don Juan's Sorcerer's explanation.Manasseh is Wisdom. (Knowing without having known as my teacher used to call it.)A comment by Don Juan really made everything fall into place. He and Carlos were loking for a proper tonal in people walking by. He would not let Carlos write anything down. Afterwards Carlos could not remember all of the people they had observed and wondered if Don Juan had so he could list them out.
He laughed and said that he did not remember it, because in the life of a sorcerer it was "nagual" that was accountable for creativity." This direct knowledge which is responsible for "seeing" and "knowing without having known" is Wisdom.
In the Qabalah it is one of the Spheres of the Supernal Triangle. It is the force side of the Tree. Chokmah, Wisdom.The polar opposite is also in the Supernal Triangle, it is Binah, Understanding.
Ge 48:1
And it came to pass after these things, that one told Joseph, Behold, thy father is sick: and he took with him his two sons, Manasseh and Ephraim.
Ge 48:2
And one told Jacob, and said, Behold, thy son Joseph cometh unto thee: and Israel strengthened himself, and sat upon the bed.
Ge 48:5
And now thy two sons, Ephraim and Manasseh, which were born unto thee in the land of Egypt before I came unto thee into Egypt, are mine; as Reuben and Simeon, they shall be mine.
Ge 48:6
And thy issue, which thou begettest after them, shall be thine, and shall be called after the name of their brethren in their inheritance.
Ge 48:7
And as for me, when I came from Padan, Rachel died by me in the land of Canaan in the way, when yet there was but a little way to come unto Ephrath: and I buried her there in the way of Ephrath; the same is Bethlehem.
Ge 48:8
And Israel beheld Joseph's sons, and said, Who are these?
Ge 48:9
And Joseph said unto his father, They are my sons, whom God hath given me in this place. And he said, Bring them, I pray thee, unto me, and I will bless them.
Ge 48:10
Now the eyes of Israel were dim for age, so that he could not see. And he brought them near unto him; and he kissed them, and embraced them.
Ge 48:11
And Israel said unto Joseph, I had not thought to see thy face: and, lo, God hath showed me also thy seed.
Ge 48:12
And Joseph brought them out from between his knees, and he bowed himself with his face to the earth.
Ge 48:13
And Joseph took them both, Ephraim in his right hand toward Israel's left hand, and Manasseh in his left hand toward Israel's right hand, and brought them near unto him.
Ge 48:14
And Israel stretched out his right hand, and laid it upon Ephraim's head, who was the younger, and his left hand upon Manasseh's head, guiding his hands wittingly; for Manasseh was the firstborn.
Ge 48:15
And he blessed Joseph, and said, God, before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac did walk, the God which fed me all my life long unto this day,
Ge 48:16
The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.
Ge 48:17
And when Joseph saw that his father laid his right hand upon the head of Ephraim, it displeased him: and he held up his father's hand, to remove it from Ephraim's head unto Manasseh's head.
Ge 48:18
And Joseph said unto his father, Not so, my father: for this is the firstborn; put thy right hand upon his head.
Ge 48:19
And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations.
Ge 48:20
And he blessed them that day, saying, In thee shall Israel bless, saying, God make thee as Ephraim and as Manasseh: and he set Ephraim before Manasseh.Stick with me this is kind of long but it is something I have been trying to understand for years.
Manasseh, Wisdom, spiritual experience, the "nagual" coming through in all kinds of ways is born first.Ephraim, Understanding, is born second and yet gets the greater blessing.
Until all of the elements or aspects of Carlos' character were in order (reunion of the sons of Israel) And he had been shown enough pieces of the "nagual", Wisdom, he was not given the Sorcerer's explanation. Understanding is the putting together of the pieces, which the function of the tonal, and which is not possible without enough pieces and the "sorcerer's explanation."
Being that both Chockmah, Wisdom, at the head of the pillar of force and Binah, Understanding, at the head of the pillar of form are both above the Abyss and therefore part of the Godhead, They are both Incomprehensible!!!
Wisdom and Understanding, the roots of force and form are inseparable. So are the nagual and the tonal.
In my own life and experience I have had many experiences with spiritual experiences and flashes of inspiration etc.It is only recently that the Understanding side of it has begun to show itself so clearly to me.It is only by holding one against the other that a full understanding can be gained.
The blessing of the two sons of Joseph (Wisdom and Understanding) comes at the end of the book of Genesis right after the reunion of the brothers of Joseph and their father Jacob/Israel. They are dwelling in Goshen (Unity)The betowing of the sorcerer's explanation comes at the end of the apprenticeship of Carlos right after he is given the complete explanation of the two remaining pieces of the puzzle. The "nagual" and the "tonal."
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Bob May wrote:
Hi Ninth and Lex,
"Here is where I varied from the tradition. After a life long struggle I know that what matters is not a new description but to arrive at the totality of oneself." DJ
This has been a very fruitful study subject for me. Pieces falling into place all over the place.The story of the reunion of Joseph and the brothers of Jacob/Israel has always been in my mind the same as Don Juan's coming to the toality of oneself. The brothers are aspects of the human condition. Seeing, Hearing, Judgement, etc. Twelve in number as opposed to Don Juan's eight.Wow, ain't this the shizzna! I have been thinking along these same lines , especially since the beginning of this year to find the signifigance of DJ, the totality of oneself and how Jacob "Israel"his 12 tribes that were scattered over the earth and thereafter fit into the" totality" of the pieces of the human condition. Right after this reunion the sons and Israel are given the land of Goshen (unity) by the pharoah to dwell in.At this point the sons of Pharoah are introduced into the story.Been trying to understand "why out of Egypt"everything biblically comes to and than away from Egypt. Egypt is known as the "base"nation.
I 'hope not to really go off on tangets here, but I never understood what and Why DJ took the time to mention and relate the pyramids of Egypt ( in one of CC's books). I forget exactly which book? Ge 41:50
And unto Joseph were born two sons before the years of famine came, which Asenath the daughter of Potipherah priest of On bare unto him.
Ge 41:51
And Joseph called the name of the firstborn Manasseh: For God, said he, hath made me forget all my toil, and all my father's house."Manasseh " is
also THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA the designated lost tribe of Jacob/ Israel // Joeseph's son Manasseh Ge 41:52
And the name of the second called he Ephraim: For God hath caused me to be fruitful in the land of my affliction."Ephraim" is ENGLAND the designated lost tribe of Jacob/ Israel // Joseph's son. The understanding of its meaning now seen in its totality on a global united front.Ephraim, I have laways known to mean Understanding.But it wasn't until last night that I realised what Manasseh signified. That was revealed when re-reading Tales of power.It all fits with the Bible and Qabalah and Don Juan's Sorcerer's explanation.Manasseh is Wisdom. (Knowing without having known as my teacher used to call it.)This is THE SHIZZNA . A great revelation. I am not ignorant of the Kabbalah and can understand the meaning of the basic aspects of the "Daath" This is the Trinity, the Shikina Glory, the unmanifest manifestation ( source/ nagual) . This is the completion, the totality of humanity. The triangle that with wisdom , understanding , and at its apex - the eagles'eye - knowledge. Knowledge with wisdom with understanding interchangably so. The all knowing eye that sits upon the pyramid. ( like on the US 1 dollar bill) . The Eagle is the symbol for America. There is way more to this and the development of nation of the United States ( Manasseh) from the spliting apart from its brother England( Ephraim) A comment by Don Juan really made everything fall into place. He and Carlos were loking for a proper tonal in people walking by. He would not let Carlos write anything down. Afterwards Carlos could not remember all of the people they had observed and wondered if Don Juan had so he could list them out.I was also thinking of this particular observation made by DJ with CC when they would sit on that emphamis bench and watch as people walked by looking for a proper tonal. lol "...since DJ, linage could not continue due to our energetic configuration, our mission was transformed from continueing his linage into DISSEMINATING HIS IDEAS. DJ's LINAGE ENDS WITH US! What could this mean for us??????? He laughed and said that he did not remember it, because in the life of a sorcerer it was "nagual" that was accountable for creativity." This direct knowledge which is responsible for "seeing" and "knowing without having known" is Wisdom.
In the Qabalah it is one of the Spheres of the Supernal Triangle. It is the force side of the Tree. Chokmah, Wisdom.
The polar opposite is also in the Supernal Triangle, it is Binah, Understanding. Going by my particular birthdate ( configuration) and its nurmerology my number is 3 Ge 48:1
And it came to pass after these things, that one told Joseph, Behold, thy father is sick: and he took with him his two sons, Manasseh and Ephraim.
Ge 48:2
And one told Jacob, and said, Behold, thy son Joseph cometh unto thee: and Israel strengthened himself, and sat upon the bed.
Ge 48:5
And now thy two sons, Ephraim and Manasseh, which were born unto thee in the land of Egypt before I came unto thee into Egypt, are mine; as Reuben and Simeon, they shall be mine.
Ge 48:6
And thy issue, which thou begettest after them, shall be thine, and shall be called after the name of their brethren in their inheritance.
Ge 48:7
And as for me, when I came from Padan, Rachel died by me in the land of Canaan in the way, when yet there was but a little way to come unto Ephrath: and I buried her there in the way of Ephrath; the same is Bethlehem.
Ge 48:8
And Israel beheld Joseph's sons, and said, Who are these?
Ge 48:9
And Joseph said unto his father, They are my sons, whom God hath given me in this place. And he said, Bring them, I pray thee, unto me, and I will bless them.
Ge 48:10
Now the eyes of Israel were dim for age, so that he could not see. And he brought them near unto him; and he kissed them, and embraced them.
Ge 48:11
And Israel said unto Joseph, I had not thought to see thy face: and, lo, God hath showed me also thy seed.Starting with these particular verses in the OT, I realised there is the making of the symbol of the "Star of David"Israel
Ge 48:12
And Joseph brought them out from between his knees, and he bowed himself with his face to the earth.
Ge 48:13
And Joseph took them both, Ephraim in his right hand toward Israel's left hand, and Manasseh in his left hand toward Israel's right hand, and brought them near unto him.
Ge 48:14
And Israel stretched out his right hand, and laid it upon Ephraim's head, who was the younger, and his left hand upon Manasseh's head, guiding his hands wittingly; for Manasseh was the firstborn.
Ge 48:15
And he blessed Joseph, and said, God, before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac did walk, the God which fed me all my life long unto this day,This is the DAATH - a triangle pointed upward and downward inside another triangle pointed downward --ascending and descending according to Jacob// Israel's dream -and the all encompasing totality of the 6 points/ completion set betwix the 6 -the number of Jesus - in the center of the tree of life "Jesus"~ hovering inside above and below the formation of the two triangles > the apex of the triangle inverted downwards the other apex of the traiangle pointed upwards.
Ge 48:16
The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.
Ge 48:17
And when Joseph saw that his father laid his right hand upon the head of Ephraim, it displeased him: and he held up his father's hand, to remove it from Ephraim's head unto Manasseh's head.
Ge 48:18
And Joseph said unto his father, Not so, my father: for this is the firstborn; put thy right hand upon his head.
Ge 48:19
And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations.
Ge 48:20
And he blessed them that day, saying, In thee shall Israel bless, saying, God make thee as Ephraim and as Manasseh: and he set Ephraim before Manasseh.Stick with me this is kind of long but it is something I have been trying to understand for years.
Manasseh, Wisdom, spiritual experience, the "nagual" coming through in all kinds of ways is born first.Ephraim, Understanding, is born second and yet gets the greater blessing.
Until all of the elements or aspects of Carlos' character were in order (reunion of the sons of Israel) And he had been shown enough pieces of the "nagual", Wisdom, he was not given the Sorcerer's explanation. Understanding is the putting together of the pieces, which the function of the tonal, and which is not possible without enough pieces and the "sorcerer's explanation."
Being that both Chockmah, Wisdom, at the head of the pillar of force and Binah, Understanding, at the head of the pillar of form are both above the Abyss and therefore part of the Godhead, They are both Incomprehensible!!!
Wisdom and Understanding, the roots of force and form are inseparable. So are the nagual and the tonal.
In my own life and experience I have had many experiences with spiritual experiences and flashes of inspiration etc.It is only recently that the Understanding side of it has begun to show itself so clearly to me.It is only by holding one against the other that a full understanding can be gained.
The blessing of the two sons of Joseph (Wisdom and Understanding) comes at the end of the book of Genesis right after the reunion of the brothers of Joseph and their father Jacob/Israel. They are dwelling in Goshen (Unity)The betowing of the sorcerer's explanation comes at the end of the apprenticeship of Carlos right after he is given the complete explanation of the two remaining pieces of the puzzle. The "nagual" and the "tonal." Thanks Bob. I see it this way too. Hope I didn't take it out of context or too much off the track , Lex. Here's the lost tribes of Israel website. http/www.giveshare.org/israel/losttribesisra ... pter6.html
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Hi Ninth,
The story of the reunion of Joseph and the brothers of Jacob/Israel has always been in my mind the same as Don Juan's coming to the toality of oneself. The brothers are aspects of the human condition. Seeing, Hearing, Judgement, etc. Twelve in number as opposed to Don Juan's eight.Wow, ain't this the shizzna! I have been thinking along these same lines , especially since the beginning of this year to find the signifigance of DJ, the totality of oneself and how Jacob "Israel"his 12 tribes that were scattered over the earth and thereafter fit into the" totality" of the pieces of the human condition.
I think this would get off track. I don't mess with the geopolitical interpretations of revelations etc. The problem with those interpretations is that they are always looking at the bible as a history book. They are either looking forward to a time in the future or back to a time in the past. Revelations is now and the revelation is that we are sons of God. It is a book about spiritual awakening period. The 12 sons are aspects of our human condition. When brought into unity we experience the totality of ourselves.
Right after this reunion the sons and Israel are given the land of Goshen (unity) by the pharoah to dwell in.At this point the sons of (I meant to write sons of Joseph, not Pharoah, here.) Pharoah are introduced into the story.Been trying to understand "why out of Egypt"everything biblically comes to and than away from Egypt. Egypt is known as the "base"nation.Egypt is our subconscious mind. Is the Pharoah friendly to Joseph (figure of Christ) or not? Egypt is where Christ consciousness grows, in "obscurity," within us. "Out of Egypt have I called my son." That is Jesus and it is also us.
I 'hope not to really go off on tangets here, but I never understood what and Why DJ took the time to mention and relate the pyramids of Egypt ( in one of CC's books). I forget exactly which book?
This is off the subject a bit, but I will say that the Qabalah is said to have come to the Hebrews through Egypt. Abraham, Moses, Elijah, Pythagoras and Plato were said to be schooled in it. Originally it came from places like Ur of the Chaldees where Abraham was from. Before that from angels "Sons of God or the gods" of Genesis.
Ephraim, I have always known to mean Understanding.But it wasn't until last night that I realised what Manasseh signified. That was revealed when re-reading Tales of power.It all fits with the Bible and Qabalah and Don Juan's Sorcerer's explanation.Manasseh is Wisdom. (Knowing without having known as my teacher used to call it.)This is THE SHIZZNA . A great revelation. I am not ignorant of the Kabbalah and can understand the meaning of the basic aspects of the "Daath" This is the Trinity, the Shikina Glory, the unmanifest manifestation ( source/ nagual) . This is the completion, the totality of humanity. The triangle that with wisdom , understanding , and at its apex - the eagles'eye - knowledge. Knowledge with wisdom with understanding interchangably so.
Starting with these particular verses in the OT, I realised there is the making of the symbol of the "Star of David"Israel
If there was no sphere of Malkuth "Earth" the tree would be two overlapped stars of David. Just connect the dots. That is our perception of earth that changes. Nothing disappears. What is going on here does. That is Revelation. That is what happens when we have revelations.
Daath (Knowledge) is the invisible Sephirah. This is "Experiential Knowlege." If we have that experience there is no Earth as we knew Earth.Daath sits astride the conjunction of the path between Wisdom and Knowledge. According to the Qabalah Unveiled they are in continual conjunction. As in Conjugual. Conception. As in the marriage.This is, I believe, the ocean of blue-white lightening that I have spoken of. A sustained orgasm of pure energy.God is continually Creating all we see and all there is.When we have revelations the Sephirah Tipareth is directly connected to all of the Sephiroth on the tree. That is the Sphere of Christ Consciousness or Cosmic Consciousness.In other words when we have revelations the Tree is in balance and the earth (a plane we were never supposed to fall to) is changed.This is the Kingdom of God. The Kingdom of heaven. It is our perception that has changed.It is an "act of Power" that is only a "Tale of Power" to those not able to see it."Two shall be grinding at the mill, the one taken the other left etc. No one is disappearing. There is no "Rapture" as is commonly believed by the people waiting for the "End of the World."The bible is a book about spiritual awakening.
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lex icon wrote:
The permanent shift in perception alters descriptions of everything how the world, people, family is perceived. Ninth
LSD had the same effect for me. I was never able to see things the same after that first trip even though the shift induced by LSD was temporary.Hey Lex...can you remember the things you saw on that first trip?Do you still get glimpses of this heightened awareness. Is this when your bubble of perception cracked???
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Good stuff Bob!
If, in our "philosophy", we do not have an explanation that says there is something beyond the second attention we will not experience the third. BobThat certainly seems to be the case with CC. However here is an example contrary to this. Once I had gone through ALL the stages outlined by St John of The Cross something happened to me that was outside of the philosophy and tradition I was associated with. In that tradition mystical union is it. There was the goal of christian mysticism. After living this union and living it deeply embedded in life in this world there was a further movement that I knew nothing of at that time and when it happened to me it took me years to get accustomed to it. It took me just a couple of years to even find out what was happening to me.
The experience I refer to is the no-self experience associated with Buddhism. Now granted I was barely aware of the Buddhists referring to no-self but at that time I did not think it was an actual experience. I just thought of it as one of their tenets like, “from the beginning no thing”, you know their beliefs. I did not think of it as something available as experience. But that’s the way it usually goes for me. I experience these states often without knowing what they are and then my intellect plays catch up. I think DJ might see this as corroborating earlier movements and regaining or retracing that movement later more knowingly.
It is unusual for me to know about a state before hand and then actively pursue it. After I went through the “night or the senses” that St John refers to, and at that time I did not know what it was or that there was such a thing but later was able to read about it and find corroboration for what I had just gone through. It was then while reading about this night of the senses St John then referred to the next stage, the stage, “night of the spirit”. Having been totally unprepared for the night of the senses, I made every effort to avail myself before hand with everything ST John had to say about the night of the spirit. I even went as far as seeking advice about this from the monks at a monastery I frequented, I assumed they knew and could guide me. It turned out they did not really know about this and viewed me as rather desperate concerning this. IT turned out that the actual experience of the night of the spirit was quite unlike what I was reading, it was way more intense, however I did know that I was deep “in it” and did not try to get out of it as I had done previously with the night of the senses.
I hesitate to bring this up because the terms that St John uses are so unfamiliar outside of that tradition and I do not wish to direct people in that direction. I offer this only as an example of knowing what may lie ahead and not knowing what lies ahead but experiencing it anyway.
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"Since don Juan's linage could not continue due to our energetic configuration, our mission was transformed from continuing his linage into disseminating his ideas. DJ linage's ends with us. (Ninth quoting CC)
Now I am not sure where CC is going with this and why he relates it to THEIR (not his alone) energetic configuration. As if their party of four Florinda, Taishar, Carol and Carlos was a single energetic unit and to be a unit of four was just not the norm in that lineage. I am also not sure how much of this was discussed with DJ or this was just some conclusion that CC came to. I wonder how not being able to continue to find heirs for that lineage effected CC. Was it humbling, liberating or both. I say humbling because DJ had dedicated his life in finding heirs or repositories of his knowledge, as a way of paying back. He did not seem that concerned with accumulating students. Then after such long endeavor with Carlos, find out that CC can not do the same. What effect would that have on the master strategist DJ?
But “disseminating DJ’s ideas” I do get and is indeed what I have been endeavoring to do in this forum and particularly in this thread. For me this becomes very cohesive when associated with DJ “varying from tradition” as he put it.
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lex icon wrote:
Good stuff Bob!
If, in our "philosophy", we do not have an explanation that says there is something beyond the second attention we will not experience the third. Bob
That certainly seems to be the case with CC. However here is an example contrary to this. Once I had gone through ALL the stages outlined by St John of The Cross something happened to me that was outside of the philosophy and tradition I was associated with.
Maybe I didn't state my point vey clearly here. I was using the word Explanation in Don Juan's way of using it. In Don Juan's explanation there was "Something" beyond second attention. Man of knowledge, third attention etc.And by "philosophy" I am thinking more of as sum total of your beliefs rather than a specific traditiion. As far as the specific tradition goes, it has to be "open ended," even if what comes after the open endedness is not explained.
In that tradition mystical union is it. There was the goal of christian mysticism. After living this union and living it deeply embedded in life in this world there was a further movement that I knew nothing of at that time and when it happened to me it took me years to get accustomed to it. It took me just a couple of years to even find out what was happening to me.The experience I refer to is the no-self experience associated with Buddhism. Now granted I was barely aware of the Buddhists referring to no-self but at that time I did not think it was an actual experience. I just thought of it as one of their tenets like, “from the beginning no thing”, you know their beliefs. I did not think of it as something available as experience. But that’s the way it usually goes for me. I experience these states often without knowing what they are and then my intellect plays catch up. I think DJ might see this as corroborating earlier movements and regaining or retracing that movement later more knowingly.
That is the way it seems to have worked with me also. I had no idea that Joseph's coat of many colors was an actual spiritual experience. I have not seen it written anywhere. Same with the flood of Noah.That is the same with other experiences that I have had also. But where it is written, it is written in such a way that only after you have had the experience will you recognize the written explanation of the experience.
It is unusual for me to know about a state before hand and then actively pursue it. After I went through the “night or the senses” that St John refers to, and at that time I did not know what it was or that there was such a thing but later was able to read about it and find corroboration for what I had just gone through. It was then while reading about this night of the senses St John then referred to the next stage, the stage, “night of the spirit”. Having been totally unprepared for the night of the senses, I made every effort to avail myself before hand with everything ST John had to say about the night of the spirit. I even went as far as seeking advice about this from the monks at a monastery I frequented, I assumed they knew and could guide me. It turned out they did not really know about this and viewed me as rather desperate concerning this. IT turned out that the actual experience of the night of the spirit was quite unlike what I was reading, it was way more intense, however I did know that I was deep “in it” and did not try to get out of it as I had done previously with the night of the senses.
I hesitate to bring this up because the terms that St John uses are so unfamiliar outside of that tradition and I do not wish to direct people in that direction. I offer this only as an example of knowing what may lie ahead and not knowing what lies ahead but experiencing it anyway.
This relates back to what we have spoken about in the past. I stated that the bible and Qabala was a road map. But this analogy only goes so far. Not knowing what comes next is part of that "open-endedness" that allows us to experience more. So is turning off the internal dialog. Don Juan told Carlos not to dwell on past experiences except as a "reference point."My teacher told me the same thing and said that the answers would come in time and I would "understand." He discouraged me from dwelling on experiences.
So then what is this "reference point" and "understanding" that will come with time??? In reference to what?That is what we are discussing here. "How it works."We see how it works from past experiences being explained or revealed later on. And by comparing these experiences and seeing the pattern repeat itself both in our own several experiences and between comparing your's to mine we have confirmed the conclusions we had already come to individually.
Though we do not understand it at first, it is these patterns that we are looking for. We seem to find ourselves "off the map," so to speak. No one has written this down. What the F--- is happening to me?I had the experience of the Coat of many colors over 20 years ago and have learned a whole lot about it in the past 2 months. I have had other experiences. One in particular, that I have only found hinted at in a Qabalistic "fable" and Valentinus' Gospel of Truth.Good stuff Bob!
If, in our "philosophy", we do not have an explanation that says there is something beyond the second attention we will not experience the third. Bob
That certainly seems to be the case with CC. However here is an example contrary to this. Once I had gone through ALL the stages outlined by St John of The Cross something happened to me that was outside of the philosophy and tradition I was associated with.
Maybe I didn't state my point vey clearly here. I was using the word Explanation in Don Juan's way of using it. In Don Juan's explanation there was "Something" beyond second attention. Man of knowledge, third attention etc.And by "philosophy" I am thinking more of as sum total of your beliefs rather than a specific traditiion. As far as the specific tradition goes, it has to be "open ended," even if what comes after the open endedness is not explained.
In that tradition mystical union is it. There was the goal of christian mysticism. After living this union and living it deeply embedded in life in this world there was a further movement that I knew nothing of at that time and when it happened to me it took me years to get accustomed to it. It took me just a couple of years to even find out what was happening to me.The experience I refer to is the no-self experience associated with Buddhism. Now granted I was barely aware of the Buddhists referring to no-self but at that time I did not think it was an actual experience. I just thought of it as one of their tenets like, “from the beginning no thing”, you know their beliefs. I did not think of it as something available as experience. But that’s the way it usually goes for me. I experience these states often without knowing what they are and then my intellect plays catch up. I think DJ might see this as corroborating earlier movements and regaining or retracing that movement later more knowingly.
That is the way it seems to have worked with me also. I had no idea that Joseph's coat of many colors was an actual spiritual experience. I have not seen it written anywhere. Same with the flood of Noah.That is the same with other experiences that I have had also. But where it is written, it is written in such a way that only after you have had the experience will you recognize the written explanation of the experience.""It is unusual for me to know about a state before hand and then actively pursue it.""
""I hesitate to bring this up because the terms that St John uses are so unfamiliar outside of that tradition and I do not wish to direct people in that direction. I offer this only as an example of knowing what may lie ahead and not knowing what lies ahead but experiencing it anyway.""I call it 20/20 spiritual hindsight. It is not only unusual for you but it is, in my opinion, one of the halmarks or The Halmark of true spiritual experience.Not knowing what lies ahead is the basis. Abraham (belief in the unseen) left Ur of the Chaldees not knowing where he went but by faith was looking for a land that was promised to him, and his seed after him. That "land" is Spiritual awareness.
For thousands of years, in the Middle East, two groups of people have been killing each other over a piece of ground not knowing that what was written about was not a piece of ground at all, but a Spiritual awareness that was promised to those who would venture into the unknown.
They have been and still are killing and dying over an allegory.
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"The experience I refer to is the no-self experience associated with Buddhism"
Was this the breakthrough with the trumpets you heard, Lex? After meditating on the implications of the question "who is aware"? I'd love to here about that moment again...it had an impact when I head you describe it once.
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LOL.....and the walls came down in Jericho...with the trumpets resounding.
Interesting, isn't it? That the Israelites stood at the boundary of Canaan and were terrified to enter and take the land. Fear of the unknown keeps us secure in our state of misery...just because its familiar. So more wandering in the desert for Abraham's people....more time to become convinced that repetitive, looping, lost enmeshment in our own self-reflective limbo is not worth the thin comfort of familiarity. i.e.....if you're jaded, then go for it....launch into unbending silence and inward discovery. Even if it means shitting your pants, its better than the smouldering boredom of the social drone.
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"The experience I refer to is the no-self experience associated with Buddhism"
Was this the breakthrough with the trumpets you heard, Lex? After
meditating on the implications of the question "who is aware"? I'd love
to here about that moment again...it had an impact when I head you
describe it once. Glance
Glance,The no-self associated with Buddhism came years after that other "breakthrough". I just wrote about that somewhere here. Ninth kept on at me to do so lol.
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LOL.....and the walls came down in Jericho...with the trumpets resounding.
Interesting, isn't it? That the Israelites stood at the boundary of Canaan and were terrified to enter and take the land. Fear of the unknown keeps us secure in our state of misery...just because its familiar. So more wandering in the desert for Abraham's people....more time to become convinced that repetitive, looping, lost enmeshment in our own self-reflective limbo is not worth the thin comfort of familiarity. i.e.....if you're jaded, then go for it....launch into unbending silence and inward discovery. Even if it means shitting your pants, its better than the smouldering boredom of the social drone. Glance,
After crossing the Jordan and taking Jericho it was not more wandering in the desert as it had been for the 40 years. There was some initial disobedience, things under the “Ban” were taken. But basically the people learned to be faithful. After Jericho they were prepared for battle and slowly but surely took the land. The men were recircumcised and faithfully carried out all the genocidal demands of their God and the Lord gave them rest from their enemies and they renewed their covenant with Him. The mindset of the people after crossing the Jordan was not the same as those who died in the desert. To force the interpretation you have upon the text seems more to do with your own loops, or connecting disassociated dots, than with representing the mindset after crossing Jordan and taking Jericho and the promised land.
Glance is there another point you are trying to make? Could you be more direct and if possible relate it to this thread?
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Because of my experience I find the perspective of Rahab the Harlot more interesting and something I can relate to better as my imagination takes wing. But that’s just me lol.
She was in the Jericho when the walls fell. She heard the sound from within. Can you imagine her anxiety, clinging to a cubic center meter of chance. Would the invaders keep their promise to her. Most of the invaders would not even recognize her. If she was spared how would she renegotiate her new life amongst a foreign people. A stranger in a strange land.
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