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Mornings Son wrote:
I still believe that Carlos was a tool to disperse the Knowledge of Toltec's Shamans.
He did that really impeccable and I very thankful for that.
Unlike Dreamways I never meet the guy so its a bit difficult to judge him for me...
Dreamways never meet him. He got an indirect dream-boost from him and saw him several times in dreaming in a trance-state. He meet Taisha, if I
remember correctly, and later on Howard Lee.
As for evualuating him, in the end is about knowing what to do and what not to do. He is gone and whatever right and wrong he did is his evolutionary problem.
We have our own issues. My idea is avoid his mistakes. Castaneda more than once was doomed and was saved by outer parties.
Perhaps our gratefulness should go also to the ones that kept him alive.
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grandspeculator wrote:
Mornings Son wrote:
I still believe that Carlos was a tool to disperse the Knowledge of Toltec's Shamans.
He did that really impeccable and I very thankful for that.
Unlike Dreamways I never meet the guy so its a bit difficult to judge him for me...
Dreamways never meet him. He got an indirect dream-boost from him and saw him several times in dreaming in a trance-state. He meet Taisha, if I
remember correctly, and later on Howard Lee.
As for evualuating him, in the end is about knowing what to do and what not to do. He is gone and whatever right and wrong he did is his evolutionary
problem.
We have our own issues. My idea is avoid his mistakes. Castaneda more than once was doomed and was saved by outer parties.
Perhaps our gratefulness should go also to the ones that kept him alive.
Ya, I only got to see Carlos in person, I didn't get a chance to talk to him. I did have in depth discussions with Kylie and she also
introduced me to Castaneda's agent Tracey Kramer. I met Taisha a couple of times. I saw Florinda but didn't get to speak to her. Went to a few
seminars, said hello to Bruce Wagner once, met a few people from the "inner circle", etc. As far as I can tell, Castaneda's trip was 100% death
defier in nature, whatever he started out doing, he had only one direction left at the end. Hey, whatever floats your boat I guess.
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he didn't go nuts with power,
he was nuts already. with power
it was just more pronounced.
He was a true pig for life.
Once a pig always a pig.
When he did his "jump" he
went completely insane.
Before that he was just a
little insane. And if you follow
his insanity you too will go insane.
It leads no where. Quit while you
are ahead and still somewhat sane.
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energylover wrote:he didn't go nuts with power,
he was nuts already. with power
it was just more pronounced.
He was a true pig for life.
Once a pig always a pig.
When he did his "jump" he
went completely insane.
Before that he was just a
little insane. And if you follow
his insanity you too will go insane.
It leads no where. Quit while you
are ahead and still somewhat sane. Oh yeah insane... as opposition to dull conditioned normality?
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energylover, do you see any VALUE in Castaneda's writings?
Or is your judgement completely black&white?
Do you think don Juan existed?
Is there any truth in 'his' teachings of Nagualism in your opinion?
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what matters most is what you believe.
now i'll repeat for the hundredth time
"there was no Juan Matus"
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How can you be so sure?
Isn't believing something is true when its not just as bad as
disbelieving in the existence of something when its true?
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energylover wrote:what matters most is what you believe.
now i'll repeat for the hundredth time
"there was no Juan Matus"
How can you be so sure?
Isn't believing something is true when its not just as bad as
disbelieving in the existence of something when its true?
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energylover wrote:what matters most is what you believe.
now i'll repeat for the hundredth time
"there was no Juan Matus"
Let's say Castaneda was a con man and
all the characters in his books fictional. Why does that matter? The
information provided is done so via ancient archtypes we all
recognize. All Castaneda (or someone) did was present the
information in a rather unique and intriguing way. The fact is, we
respond to the information, to the archtypes and whether any of the
characters really existed is irrelevant.
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I agree, who cares if he was a con and it was all fictional...who cares about the intricate details about his life? There was a deeper knowledge in his books (at least the first 3 or 4) and I walked away the better for. Never once did I take the story to be anything other than a story written by a man to sell books...I didn't have to in order to get something out of it.
Now one could question why Castaneda felt the need to wrap that knowledge in a story like he did. However, one only has to look at the nature of audiences...audiences like stories. So what? I think that would be a topic worth discussing.
Why do you (EL) feel that you need to disregard peoples experiences of the books and add insult to injury by bumperstickering details about his sex life over them as if that proves anything?
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It would make a difference...
If the book is fiction then Carlos lied claiming it was real, and who wants to 'believe' such books?
I mean Star Wars and Jedi are awesome cool and inspiring but we know the movies and books are fiction and the producers did not try to pass them off as being real life events...
Seriously if you found out truly that Castaneda lied about everything and there was no 'don Juan', you would not look at 'Nagualism' quite in the same way...
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Diamond Unicorn wrote:It would make a difference...
If the book is fiction then Carlos lied claiming it was real, and who wants to 'believe' such books?
I mean Star Wars and Jedi are awesome cool and inspiring but we know the movies and books are fiction and the producers did not try to pass them off as being real life events...
Seriously if you found out truly that Castaneda lied about everything and there was no 'don Juan', you would not look at 'Nagualism' quite in the same way...
Just as the ploy of a dim witted student works as a literary device to cause the "teacher" to explain everything in detail, perhaps the ploy of insinuating the books were not fiction was a marketing tool?
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Diamond Unicorn wrote:I mean Star Wars and Jedi are awesome cool and inspiring but we know the movies and books are fiction and the producers did not try to pass them off as being real life events...
Well not all agree on this Unicorn...
from
http://www.jedichurch.org/
Jedi Religious Faith
The Jedi Church believes that there is one all powerful force that
binds all things in the universe together. The Jedi religion is
something innate inside everyone of us, the Jedi Church believes that
our sense of morality is innate. So quiet your mind and listen to the
force within you!
An Official Religion - Census Issues.
Make sure you answer the religion question correctly. The NZ Census
bureau believe that the Jedi answer means "Response outside of scope" or
"Answer understood, but will not be counted", whereas "satanism",
"wican", "yoga" etc are valid answers. The sheer number of people who
entered "Jedi" was a significant in the last census, approximately 20000
in NZ alone (indicative result given confidentially). I note there were
more Jedi's than Assembly of God, or Jehovah's Witnesses.
In order for the Jedi church to grow, we need access to these
statistics just like any other church/order. In the UK the number of
people who answered Jedi, were greater than many other common Christian
denominations. In fact, in the UK, 2% of people in Brighton are of the
Jedi Faith.
It is not against the law to answer Jedi, you are welcome to have any
faith you wish. It is the governments responsibility to accept our
faith and accurately record the statistics.
All Welcome
The Jedi Church recognises that there is one all powerful force that
binds all things in the universe together, and accepts all races and
species from all over the universe as potential members of the religion.
Join the Jedi Church today!
Our church had 21000 unique visitors last month. The Jedi Church is a good force in the universe.
***
and a side story from UK
Political correctness strikes back: Jedi believer wins apology after being kicked out of Jobcentre for wearing a hood
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... z1edhAd7ng
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Diamond Unicorn wrote:
Seriously if you found out truly that Castaneda lied about everything and there was no 'don Juan', you would not look at 'Nagualism' quite in the same way...It really doesn't matter what Castaneda said or did, what was lies and what is truth. If I found out that everything he ever said was a lie, it would not invalidate my own experiences. Nagualism is a way of life - not a religion. It is a way of be-ing, not a way of thinking, and definitely not a matter of believing something you read in a book. I had already experienced many of the things described in Castaneda's works LONG BEFORE I ever read anything he wrote. So his books were primarily validation for me, and not something I set out to try to recreate. For those who have tried to recreate CC's experience, I imagine it will almost always end in failure, disappointment, and bitterness. Burying oneself in the earth will not make one an enlightened Nagual anymore than nailing oneself to a cross will make one Jesus.
So in the big picture, it doesn't matter if Castaneda lied. Truth is in your own experience, not in someone else's words.
Those who claim to have been "hurt" by Castaneda obviously need somewhere to lay the blame for their own failures or shortcomings. Kinda like trying to blame some imaginary "Satan" for all the troubles of the world, when the simple truth is that people create their own reality. God, Satan, and Castaneda are off playing poker for pennies. Each and every human is on their own.
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QS: bla what have you seen ?
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scout1 wrote:
QS: bla what have you seen ?
Enough to know who I-Am without Castaneda or anyone else to tell me.
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quantumshaman wrote:
I had already experienced many of the things described in Castaneda's works LONG BEFORE I ever read anything he wrote. So his books were primarily validation for me, and not something I set out to try to recreate. For those who have tried to recreate CC's experience, I imagine it will almost always end in failure, disappointment, and bitterness. Burying oneself in the earth will not make one an enlightened Nagual anymore than nailing oneself to a cross will make one Jesus.
Truth is in your own experience, not in someone else's words.
Each and every human is on their own.
Della,
Same here and agreed and agreed again.
Also "Enough to know who I-Am without Castaneda or anyone else to tell me" Good one.
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Gonzo wrote:Just as the ploy of a dim witted student works as a literary device to cause the "teacher" to explain everything in detail, perhaps the ploy of insinuating the books were not fiction was a marketing tool?
Its surely feasible, like someone turning into a crow or jumping off cliffs and surviving
O_o
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Mornings Son wrote  iamond Unicorn wrote:I mean Star Wars and Jedi are awesome cool and inspiring but we know the movies and books are fiction and the producers did not try to pass them off as being real life events...
Well not all agree on this Unicorn...
from
http://www.jedichurch.org/
Jedi Religious Faith
The Jedi Church believes that there is one all powerful force that
binds all things in the universe together. The Jedi religion is
something innate inside everyone of us, the Jedi Church believes that
our sense of morality is innate. So quiet your mind and listen to the
force within you!
It is not against the law to answer Jedi, you are welcome to have any
faith you wish. It is the governments responsibility to accept our
faith and accurately record the statistics.
Yeah but they dont believe the actual Star Wars movie really happened or that Mr Lucus is a prophet and God revealed to him the history and events of a 'galaxy far, far away'.
The terminology used by the Jedi Church were introduced by the
fictional Star Wars movies, and often references are made to the movies
by our members, as a conceptual demonstration of how some might ascribe
to the higher levels of a Jedi faith, in a far away land, a long time
ago. The fact remains, that these concepts merely reflect a deep held
innate morality, that we all have inside us, and now we have some common
terminology and place to share our thoughts with each other. This
morality existed prior to the movies. The movies do not in any way legitimise nor negate the legitimacy of the Jedi Church. They are merely a discussion point.
The Jedi Church neither confirm nor deny that George Lucas is a
member of the Jedi Church. We do not mind if our members deny their
involvement in our church should they seek to avoid persecution.
from
http://www.jedichurch.org/
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quantumshaman wrote iamond Unicorn wrote:
Seriously if you found out truly that Castaneda lied about everything and there was no 'don Juan', you would not look at 'Nagualism' quite in the same way...It really doesn't matter what Castaneda said or did, what was lies and what is truth. If I found out that everything he ever said was a lie, it would not invalidate my own experiences.
It wouldn't invalidate your experiences but it would change your view of the 'knowledge' in Castaneda's books, and depending how much one based their world-view paradigm on those books, it could matter a lot.
I just read Dan Milman of the Peaceful Warrior series admitted that his 'teacher' Socrates was not real, but was a composite of teachers and wisdom he had read and learned, Socrates did not really jump to the top of the roof, or do other magical things that Dan wrote about.
How would that make you feel if you believed and trusted that Dan was telling the truth and you based some of your life on what was written in his books? Would you feel a little cheated or betrayed?
It could potentially change drastically how you look at those 'teachings' depending how 'into' them you were ...
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docta lee wrote:Hi
Ok i first off i am not here to debunk Carlos...his works were and still are awesome
So save your attacks for your own personal war
From reading Amy Wallace's book The Sorcerers Apprentice a 2nd time i have concluded that Carlos lied to his disciples: he calls it controlled folly or
losing self importance...i think that is bullshit, this was a way he could get out of direct dealings with people a wimpy way of dealing with himself and
others A WARRIOR i think not ( not in his last 10 years anyway).
He was projectiing his fears onto his students, the oldest trick in the book for a cult leader.
I am not afraid to look at what is real with CC to say this i mean that his follwers in the end were not seeing the truith, he blured it on purpose.
So you may ask why is Amy truthful if she was one of the witches? well she is not now and she got out of it while others did not.
So her writings were from a place of balance, a place of reflection and a place of peace...this is why i believe her story.
Some of CC students went into mental wards when he cut them out of his inner circle and 4 of his closest ones took their own lives once he died!
They couldn't deal with life without him...how sad, how strange and how INSANE! WOW?????
Don Juan never spoke of suicide and if he did then he was a **** no matter how you look at it one should never take their life just because we can does not
mean we should.... EVER!
Florinda was apparently a student of Don Juan then she changed her story and said it was Carlos...come on that's a simple case of getting caught in your
own lies.
I suppose i get upset when i read her book, she loved Carlos and he loved her. I trust what she says is real...she has no reason to lie no reason to hurt just
to tell her story.
I get upset when i read how mean and ugly he was to his students and you know what! this was not sorcery! it was selfish and he did for personal gain . He told
his students to tell his/her parents to go to hell!! like c'mom thats just not cool people, unless these parents were abusive and sick but according to Amy
Carlos was was the one that was abusive
Or to say really disturbing things like your friends are only there for themselves so *** them! like that is really really scary **** to be putting into weak
minds of eager people who look up to you....HOW COULD HE DO THAT TO THEM?
I can truely say that i have been in postions where people have really looked up to me and i NEVER EVER did or would exploit that HOW COULD I ? HOW COULD YOU?
AND WHY DID CARLOS?
He could have
what happened to this man? was there just to many hot LA chicks around in his workshops and just wanted to *** like a monkey? so he lied and played games with
them all?
So i ask you my friends why do you think he went nuts with power?
As energylover said one theory is he was already nuts and the 'with power' part is meaningless cause what he did in his books were all a lie to begin with, so he was just plain nuts.
Assuming the books are true, power has the potential to corrupt and he was just not impeccable enough, which may explain why he died a petty mortal death of sickness. Maybe if he read the Urantia book he wouldn't have devolved into an evil cult-master.
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Geez, it smells a bit like Sustained Reaction in here.... Yuck!
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Diamond Unicorn wrote:
It wouldn't invalidate your experiences but it would change your view of the 'knowledge' in Castaneda's books, and depending how much one based their world-view paradigm on those books, it could matter a lot.
I just read Dan Milman of the Peaceful Warrior series admitted that his 'teacher' Socrates was not real, but was a composite of teachers and wisdom he had read and learned, Socrates did not really jump to the top of the roof, or do other magical things that Dan wrote about.
How would that make you feel if you believed and trusted that Dan was telling the truth and you based some of your life on what was written in his books? Would you feel a little cheated or betrayed?
It could potentially change drastically how you look at those 'teachings' depending how 'into' them you were ...
I think you're missing my point entirely. If you (anyone) have done the work of "spiritual evolution" (call it whatever you like) for yourself, then it really makes NO difference what ANYONE else says in a book.
If Castaneda lied, how does that POSSIBLY invalidate my own experience, or how I view the Knowledge? Knowledge itself can ONLY be gained through direct personal experience - meaning that if you (anyone) are depending on what you read in books, that is only INFORMATION (to you) even though it may very well be Knowledge to the person who wrote the book. Did CC really jump off a cliff in Mexico and end up in Los Angeles? Probably not, but who's to say? Does it matter?
Re your question about Dan Millman... Same thing. Most mystical Knowledge really cannot be explained or even talked about in words alone, so it is couched in allegory or parable form. Like the Bible, for example. Do you REALLY think Jesus walked on water or fed a mob from a picnic basket or rose from the dead? And even if you DO believe any of these things empirically, it is essentially worthless INFORMATION until you yourself have done the work FOR yourself. Should you go jump off a cliff or get yourself crucified? No, don't try this at home, boys & girls. THINK for yourself. That's the problem some of CC's followers obviously suffered from: a complete and total inability or unwillingness to forward-think - which leaves one wide open to the consequences of blind belief. Come to think of it, it's the same problem inherent with any "religion". Follow the shoe! Follow the gourd! Follow the holy rabbit of Antioch! "Belief" is probably the biggest stumbling block to spiritual evolution.
ANY "teachings" are only guidelines, an instruction manual at best. Believing that "Jesus saves" or "Don Juan lives" or "Castaneda lied"... all these things are irrelevant, BECAUSE they are only beliefs - and in the big picture, "belief" is as worthless as tits on a bull.
Knowledge comes from experience. Experience comes from manifested Intent and quantifiable Do-ing.
That's not what I believe. It's what I know. For that reason alone, my "faith" cannot be destroyed if I learn someone else lied, because I have no "faith" to begin with. As my own teacher once said: The destruction of faith is the beginning of evolution.
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I absolutely get your point but I disagree with your conclusion that it 'doesn't matter' or its irrelevant.
It matters simply because there is a difference between truth and fantasy, and anyone who loves the truth will want to know the truth!
There is a difference between a piece of fiction that may 'reflect truth' or be inspiring and between a real and valid account of actual spiritual experiences and teachings;
QS: Believing that "Jesus saves" or "Don Juan lives" or "Castaneda lied"... all these things are irrelevant, BECAUSE they are only beliefs - and in the big picture, "belief" is as worthless as tits on a bull.
Not exactly... there is a big difference between believing in something that is actually true in universe reality and believing in something that was made up in someone's imagination.
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songbird wrote:Geez, it smells a bit like Sustained Reaction in here.... Yuck!
If you mean it smells like critical thinking then why would that be yucky? sniff sniff, smells like freedom to me
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