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Enchantra wrote:I think it would be interesting if we could all describe how it feels for our AP to shift. What physical sensations do you notice, what sort of side-effects do you feel and anything else that might help folks understand what an AP shift is like for you personally.
I'm very interested to hear how others experience this. For me it's quite hard to put into words as I often feel in a place where words don't seem to work, or that thoughts are not real tonal thoughts but more like impulses and so this makes it hard to connect what I am feeling, to words.
I think it would be more interesting to describe what an Assemblage Point is, what it looks like, where it is, how it feels, what it means.
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LOL, is this because you would rather think about it than experience it? Although, I agree, definition is in order.
For me, the AP represents the place where the energy enimations of this world come in where we assemble it and a shift represents allowing other energy eminations of other worlds in. Similar to Enchantra, I experience mine in dreaming. There is a sureal quality to it, for me. For my AP to shift I have to already be at the place of no judgment and there remains no judgment after it is shifted. The feeling is familiar, like how you might say is me only it is a very different me in a different world, but as familar as this me in this world. The last time I did this I was somewhere where the sky was green and I knew it like it had always been green, but I couldn't take my eyes off it. I kept feeling like it used to be another color. Then I shifted back and was here again where the sky is blue.
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...I think that it is a good exercise and discpline to try to describe what you actually experiencing.
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Sedna wrote:LOL, is this because you would rather think about it than experience it? Although, I agree, definition is in order.
For me, the AP represents the place where the energy enimations of this world come in where we assemble it and a shift represents allowing other energy eminations of other worlds in. Similar to Enchantra, I experience mine in dreaming. There is a sureal quality to it, for me. For my AP to shift I have to already be at the place of no judgment and there remains no judgment after it is shifted. The feeling is familiar, like how you might say is me only it is a very different me in a different world, but as familar as this me in this world. The last time I did this I was somewhere where the sky was green and I knew it like it had always been green, but I couldn't take my eyes off it. I kept feeling like it used to be another color. Then I shifted back and was here again where the sky is blue.
"...energy emanations of this world..." which would be? Gravity? Magnetism? Electricity?
Indeed, it's a thought, as Gautama said..."We are what we think." We think we perceive energy, and therefore, we perceive energy. We create with our imaginations. Don Juan's whole gig about the Assemblage Point is merely another trick to get folk to pay attention to their being.
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I might add the following, in regard the "AP":Sedna wrote:datura8 wrote: And as a reminder: "The purpose of stalking is twofold: first, to move the assemblage point as steadily and safely as possible, and nothing can do the job as well as stalking ; second, to imprint its principles at such a deep level that the human inventory is bypassed; for example the human inventory's natural reaction of refusing and judging something that may be offensive to reason." ~DJMI don't recall that quote. Is it one of the rewritten synopsis statements?
I am not sure that the nature or function of the AP has been determined. Is it emotional, perception, mental, or something else having to do with energy?
Also, something I have been starting to question recently, is this site about the 4 Agreements or CC's version of toltec?
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Hehe, my same thoughts exactly. 'Cept you are one of the its all mental and emotional ones Gonzo, so what's your complaint?
I would have described my experience as being of another world even without having read CC's books. Have you ever identified your awareness? Noticed where it is seated and how it functions? (Which to me, is more something to use stalking for). There seems a point where things come in. What would you call what comes in? Energy eminations is the only term I have, but we could just as easily call it what comes in.
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Heh...no complaint, other than that no one can define Assemblage Point. Sounds good, means nothing.
Identified my awareness? How does one do that? Cogito, ergo sum. That seems adequate for me. I have considered where my awareness goes, actually, and came up with the following:
it is of interest to consider various points of awareness. I believe there are at least seven.
First, within waking attention, or "First Attention" is awareness of the moment, something we seem to access only occasionally, and usually when alone. I liken this to gazing at dragonflies. At those times I am usually aware of the sights, sounds, smells, the feel of things, not always aware of the body, attention focused on the things of the now.
Second, also within waking attention, is daydreaming or fantasizing, sometimes so strongly the entire moment is forgotten. A good example is on a long road trip, where the mind wanders to all sorts of topics while some other aspect of self keeps the car on the road.
Third, also within waking attention, is when reading, in a sense a form of fantasizing. When reading, attention is on the sense of what is being read and awareness is not on things of the moment.
Fourth, also within waking attention, akin to reading, which is watching a movie, or a play, or television, where attention is on the actions of the characters and again not on the things of the moment.
Fifth, also within waking attention, is purposeful fantasizing, usually referred to as shamanic journeying. Hypnosis might well fall into this category. The point is, one is still 'awake' in first attention while engaged.
Sixth, also within waking attention, is journeying via entheogens where attention is focused on the visions, sensations and action occurring as a result of the substance.
(I'm unsure what constitutes second attention in any of the above.)
Seventh would be ordinary dreaming.
Eighth would be lucid dreaming. I've not had any astral experiences, however, I would be tempted to place them within the category of lucid dreaming. The same is true of NDE's.
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Gonzo wrote:
Heh...no complaint, other than that no one can define Assemblage Point. Sounds good, means nothing.
Identified my awareness? How does one do that? Cogito, ergo sum. That seems adequate for me. I have considered where my awareness goes, actually, and came up with the following:
it is of interest to consider various points of awareness. I believe there are at least seven.
First, within waking attention, or "First Attention" is awareness of the moment, something we seem to access only occasionally, and usually when alone. I liken this to gazing at dragonflies. At those times I am usually aware of the sights, sounds, smells, the feel of things, not always aware of the body, attention focused on the things of the now.
Second, also within waking attention, is daydreaming or fantasizing, sometimes so strongly the entire moment is forgotten. A good example is on a long road trip, where the mind wanders to all sorts of topics while some other aspect of self keeps the car on the road.
Third, also within waking attention, is when reading, in a sense a form of fantasizing. When reading, attention is on the sense of what is being read and awareness is not on things of the moment.
Fourth, also within waking attention, akin to reading, which is watching a movie, or a play, or television, where attention is on the actions of the characters and again not on the things of the moment.
Fifth, also within waking attention, is purposeful fantasizing, usually referred to as shamanic journeying. Hypnosis might well fall into this category. The point is, one is still 'awake' in first attention while engaged.
Sixth, also within waking attention, is journeying via entheogens where attention is focused on the visions, sensations and action occurring as a result of the substance.
(I'm unsure what constitutes second attention in any of the above.)
Seventh would be ordinary dreaming.
Eighth would be lucid dreaming. I've not had any astral experiences, however, I would be tempted to place them within the category of lucid dreaming. The same is true of NDE's.
Nice work identifying all these. How about this, how about try to identify the part of you that is aware. See if you can't come up with a description of that part of you. It might be revealing.
Would you like to have an astral experience?
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Gonzo wrote:
Identified my awareness? How does one do that? Cogito, ergo sum. That seems adequate for me.
Hmm, well...wouldn't this be a worthy subject of a stalking exercise? Would you like to identify your awareness?
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Gonzo wrote:no one can define Assemblage Point. Sounds good, means nothing.
I got a pretty good description and illustration of the AP and its function and how it connects us to everything from dJ a few years ago in a dream.
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It would be helpful to share the description.
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Sedna wrote:Nice work identifying all these. How about this, how about try to identify the part of you that is aware. See if you can't come up with a description of that part of you. It might be revealing.
Would you like to have an astral experience?
Identifying that part which is aware is akin to the emperor asking Bodhidharma who stood before him. I have to give the same answer: "I don't know."
As for an astral experience, that has been a goal for some time, yet to be accomplished. Lucid dreaming to me seems very similar, the difference being that apparently astral experiences have as their environment the same as waking reality, whereas in lucid dreams, the environment is a creation of the dreamer.
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Gonzo wrote:
Sedna wrote:
Nice work identifying all these. How about this, how about try to identify the part of you that is aware. See if you can't come up with a description of that part of you. It might be revealing.
Would you like to have an astral experience?
Identifying that part which is aware is akin to the emperor asking Bodhidharma who stood before him. I have to give the same answer: "I don't know."
As for an astral experience, that has been a goal for some time, yet to be accomplished. Lucid dreaming to me seems very similar, the difference being that apparently astral experiences have as their environment the same as waking reality, whereas in lucid dreams, the environment is a creation of the dreamer.
I can help you with that if you like.
Identifying which part of you is aware is a good stalking exercise, if you are up for it (you seem to me to be), and because it is something clouded for you at the moment it might help to start off by going through a process of elimination. As an example, ask yourself if your awareness comes from your foot...you might get some surprising answers.
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I've done that "exercise", what my teacher referred to as a "body scan", also what Chopra described in "The Way of the Wizard". It works in accord with what don Juan mentioned about memories being stashed in various parts of the body - in dJ's case, I believe he said it was in the legs.
Even so, what is dredged up is done so by the awareness, which still does not give definition or identification of the awareness itself. In a way, that process reminds me of a game we played on my youngest daughter when we suggested she try to see her eyeballs. She actually tried it. I'm not sure an awareness can "see" itself any more than you can see your own eyeballs.
It does seem that that which is aware only sometimes resides in the body.
In regard to assistance with identifying which part is aware, I'd be curious what you might be able to help with and what form that help would take.
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Gonzo wrote:
I've done that "exercise", what my teacher referred to as a "body scan", also what Chopra described in "The Way of the Wizard". It works in accord with what don Juan mentioned about memories being stashed in various parts of the body - in dJ's case, I believe he said it was in the legs.
Even so, what is dredged up is done so by the awareness, which still does not give definition or identification of the awareness itself. In a way, that process reminds me of a game we played on my youngest daughter when we suggested she try to see her eyeballs. She actually tried it. I'm not sure an awareness can "see" itself any more than you can see your own eyeballs.
It does seem that that which is aware only sometimes resides in the body.
In regard to assistance with identifying which part is aware, I'd be curious what you might be able to help with and what form that help would take.I could help with your effort to have an astral experience.
What I was suggesting, in terms of locating your awareness, was not a body scan. Unfortunately, your tendency to want to merge what I am saying with everything else you have heard keeps you from understanding what I am saying. For the record, I am not into the whole mental, emotional new age toltec, so if that is what you are wanting then my suggestions will be of no use to you. Otherwise, it is on you to give what I am suggesting a fair try.
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This is very familiar. In fact, I think my AP just shifted back to a time..... to a time when.....
oh, wait...
it's coming to me............
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Enchantra wrote:
This is very familiar. In fact, I think my AP just shifted back to a time..... to a time when.....
oh, wait...
it's coming to me............
Heh. Me too, me too! Saw thru it then, seeing thru it now.
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alien wrote:
Enchantra wrote:
This is very familiar. In fact, I think my AP just shifted back to a time..... to a time when.....
oh, wait...
it's coming to me............
Heh. Me too, me too! Saw thru it then, seeing thru it now. Yes, I've been smelling it for some time too.
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Sedna wrote:
Gonzo wrote:
Sedna wrote:
Nice work identifying all these. How about this, how about try to identify the part of you that is aware. See if you can't come up with a description of that part of you. It might be revealing.
Would you like to have an astral experience?
Identifying that part which is aware is akin to the emperor asking Bodhidharma who stood before him. I have to give the same answer: "I don't know."
As for an astral experience, that has been a goal for some time, yet to be accomplished. Lucid dreaming to me seems very similar, the difference being that apparently astral experiences have as their environment the same as waking reality, whereas in lucid dreams, the environment is a creation of the dreamer.
I can help you with that if you like.
Identifying which part of you is aware is a good stalking exercise, if you are up for it (you seem to me to be), and because it is something clouded for you at the moment it might help to start off by going through a process of elimination. As an example, ask yourself if your awareness comes from your foot...you might get some surprising answers. Yes awareness is coming to my foot now too. And it's about to go somewhere if you persist in offering to teach Gonzo like the old days.
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Sedna wrote:Gonzo wrote:
I've done that "exercise", what my teacher referred to as a "body scan", also what Chopra described in "The Way of the Wizard". It works in accord with what don Juan mentioned about memories being stashed in various parts of the body - in dJ's case, I believe he said it was in the legs.
Even so, what is dredged up is done so by the awareness, which still does not give definition or identification of the awareness itself. In a way, that process reminds me of a game we played on my youngest daughter when we suggested she try to see her eyeballs. She actually tried it. I'm not sure an awareness can "see" itself any more than you can see your own eyeballs.
It does seem that that which is aware only sometimes resides in the body.
In regard to assistance with identifying which part is aware, I'd be curious what you might be able to help with and what form that help would take.I could help with your effort to have an astral experience.
What I was suggesting, in terms of locating your awareness, was not a body scan. Unfortunately, your tendency to want to merge what I am saying with everything else you have heard keeps you from understanding what I am saying. For the record, I am not into the whole mental, emotional new age toltec, so if that is what you are wanting then my suggestions will be of no use to you. Otherwise, it is on you to give what I am suggesting a fair try.
I must have missed it. I believe you suggested I examine my foot, which led me to recall the business of a body scan. Perhaps you could be more explicit.
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Gonzo wrote:
I must have missed it. I believe you suggested I examine my foot, which led me to recall the business of a body scan. Perhaps you could be more explicit.
You're buying into it again. "Perhaps you could be more explicit." This is not an example of being open, but an example of not having learned from the first time around. Also note that Sedna suggested aligning yourself with a guru. Guess who that guru is likely to be... hmmmmm?
You like to say you have no gurus. Hope you walk the walk instead of just talking the stalk.
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Seems there is an elephant in the room that many can identify--except for the elephant itself. Reading through this thread feels voyeuristic to me---as though two people are having a private discussion and acting unaware that others are listening. Weird.
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Someone asked earlier in this thread for a description of what the AP is. I found a good article.
The Assemblage Point
Many
people have emailed me requesting clarification on the assemblage
point. The best point of reference for this is in the book The Fire From Within by Carlos Castaneda and here is information through my personal experience united with the teachings of Carlos.
People repeatedly choose to perceive the same reality for two
reasons. First, and most important, because we have been taught that
those particular realities are perceivable and “normal”, and second
because our assemblage points select and prepare those realities for
being used on a regular basis.
Having done considerable amounts of energy work and teachings for
people over the course of many years, it became evident that a major
distraction was almost always required for the purpose of facilitating
success in assisting one in shifting their assemblage point. One
person, who worked with me on a regular basis, asked me if I could
assist him with something when we got home from our walk in the desert.
I said, let’s do it right now and he asked me if we could without the
assistance of sage, feathers and a rattle. As a committed apprentice on
the path of awareness, he was at a point in this juncture when he needed
to move beyond this distraction so I explained that those items simply
serve as a tool to help provide focus to the task at hand. He asked me
if I needed them to do my work and was surprised when I told him no,
they are only utilized to create a focal point for the students and that
they don’t serve me at all.
Rituals and incantations are indeed necessary at one time in every
warrior’s life. But only for purposes of luring one’s first attention
away from the power of self-absorption, which keeps his assemblage point
rigidly fixed.
The obsessive entanglement of the first attention in self-absorption
or reason is a powerful binding force, and ritual behavior, because it
is repetitive, forces the first attention to free some energy from
watching the inventory, as a consequence of which the assemblage point
loses its rigidity.
To shift your assemblage point, one needs a lot of energy or
assistance from an impeccable nagual. What determines the shift is
energy. When the assemblage points moves from its fixated point, if you
are not a warrior, you think you’re losing your mind. If you are a
warrior, you know you’ve gone crazy, but you patiently wait. You see, to
be healthy and sane means that the assemblage point is immovable. When
it shifts, it literally means that one is deranged.
Impeccable warriors don’t lose their marbles. They remain untouched. Impeccable warriors may see horrifying and strange worlds and yet the next moment they are telling a joke, laughing with their friends or with strangers.
Two options are opened to warriors whose assemblage points have
shifted. One is to acknowledge being ill and to behave in deranged ways,
reacting emotionally to the strange worlds that their shifts force them
to witness; the other is to remain impassive, untouched, knowing that
the assemblage point always returns to its original position.
If the assemblage point doesn’t return to its original position, then
those people are lost. They are either incurably crazy, because their
assemblage points could never assemble the world as we know it, or they
are peerless seers who have begun their movement toward the unknown.
The fixation of the assemblage point begins as toddlers. Parents
restrict their children’s sense of perception by forcing their own upon
them, the very perceptions that they were taught by their parents and so
on and so on. A small child’s rendering of a house may not look
anything like a house but the parent or teacher will promptly draw about
six lines on a piece of paper and exclaim, “now that’s a house.” The
child’s perspective, therefore, becomes fixated on those drawn lines and
future renderings of the “house” will always maintain that perspective
having been locked in by the person that they trust to be right.
To shift ones assemblage point is to utilize the vast amounts of
energy that become available through recapitulation. The extra energy
allows one to perceive at a point beyond the limited perceptions that
have been placed upon us from birth. To imagine this all you have to do
is realize that everything in our existence is simply energy. Cars,
people, buildings, kitchen utensils, shoes, etc. They are tangible
objects that are made up of infinite atoms, electrons and sub-atomic
particles. Most people perceive them as concrete, solid objects.
Sorcerers perceive them of the very thing they are, pure energy. This is
not only possible but it is incredibly frightening when it first
occurs. Your rationale is challenged on an extreme level as you witness
the “melting” or transformation of form. It is the impeccable warrior
that keeps his act together and not surprising that if these shifts
occur to regular people they are apt to go insane.
http://thetoltecpath.word...om/the-assemblage-point/
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I read the opening post. It was about what it feels like when the AP shift.
The first time it happened to me i felt like i had just been kneed in the back. It was a forcible shock that caused me to throw my shoulder back and arch my chest out. Physically it still gets me like this. It seems a bodily experience when it happens but if i try to locate the exact position in the body of where this is coming from it is a bit perplexing. It does seem to originate from just outside the physical body limits. Imagine seeing someone have very cold water thrown over their skin, or being slapped on their naked back. The physical reaction can sometimes resemble this.
From an internal psychological perspective in social situations it often feel like a huge building anxiety, an internal pressure. Sometimes right before it moves i start thinking that i might be dying. Then it moves. The sensations after are linked to where it has moved to.
Intentionally moving it is pretty hard core from a psychological perspective. I have done this a few times and is like going from mr nice to psychopath/sociopath through an act of pure will. Its actually incredibly easy to do. The only difficulty is overcoming the near daunting fixation of acting outside of who we believe ourselves to be. Like i said its pretty hardcore, frightening really. There are no limits as to what i might do, either to others or myself. The idea of this is one thing, living it it someting else entirely.
With various deep AP shifts i have felt an external bodily pressure all over me, like being crushed, then peculiarly i have felt something like soap (god knows why i say this) covering my skin and i slip through into wherever. The soap experience is really really wierd, and unpleasant. I can almost taste the stuff ooze out of me. Just wierd! This phenomena has happened when leaving this energetic phylum. I dont currently have too many of these last shifts to draw many conclusions from.
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