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"I'll try to help you clarify what you know, then," he said. "Stalking
is a procedure, a very simple one. Stalking is special behavior that
follows certain principles. It is secretive, furtive, deceptive behavior
designed to deliver a jolt. And, when you stalk yourself you jolt
yourself, using your own behavior in a ruthless, cunning way."
He
explained that when a sorcerer's awareness became bogged down with the
weight of his perceptual input, which was what was happening to me, the
best, or even perhaps the only remedy was to use the idea of death to
deliver that stalking jolt.
"Your problem is very simple," he
said. "You become easily obsessed. I have been telling you that
sorcerers stalk themselves in order to break the power of their
obsessions. There are many ways of stalking oneself. If you don't want
to use the idea of your death, use the poems you read me to stalk
yourself."
"As I hear the words," don Juan said when I had
finished reading, "I feel that that man is seeing the essence of things
and I can see with him. I don't care what the poem is about. I care only
about the feeling the poet's longing brings me. I borrow his longing,
and with it I borrow the beauty. And marvel at the fact that he, like a
true warrior, lavishes it on the recipients, the beholders, retaining
for himself only his longing. This jolt, this shock of beauty, is
stalking." http://sorcery.yuku.com/topic/2573/Stal ... -Castaneda
This is what I too understand as stalking's primary purpose...to deliver
change, a jolt, for the better upon one's circumstances. Liberation of
what was fixed. To me stalking aids to draw one and potentially others
to the nagual, to a place of inner freedom, that's its purpose as far as
warriors are concerned. Changing behavior, fluidity, controlled folly.
I'd say the essence of stalking is being very fluid, mysterious in one's
actions but so sincere about it that everyone perceives it as not
mysterious at all. Stalking helps develop and maintain a fluid ap that
can shift to effectively fit (conservation, appropriate use of energy) each and every circumstance one faces. DJ said that
it was considered to call it "controlled folly maker" but that its just
far easier to simply say "stalker"
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"I'd say the essence of stalking is being very fluid, mysterious in one's actions (even to themselves) but so sincere about it that everyone perceives it as not mysterious at all."
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Nu Lang wrote:"I'll try to help you clarify what you know, then," he said. "Stalking
is a procedure, a very simple one. Stalking is special behavior that
follows certain principles. It is secretive, furtive, deceptive behavior
designed to deliver a jolt. And, when you stalk yourself you jolt
yourself, using your own behavior in a ruthless, cunning way."
He
explained that when a sorcerer's awareness became bogged down with the
weight of his perceptual input, which was what was happening to me, the
best, or even perhaps the only remedy was to use the idea of death to
deliver that stalking jolt.
"Your problem is very simple," he
said. "You become easily obsessed. I have been telling you that
sorcerers stalk themselves in order to break the power of their
obsessions. There are many ways of stalking oneself. If you don't want
to use the idea of your death, use the poems you read me to stalk
yourself."
"As I hear the words," don Juan said when I had
finished reading, "I feel that that man is seeing the essence of things
and I can see with him. I don't care what the poem is about. I care only
about the feeling the poet's longing brings me. I borrow his longing,
and with it I borrow the beauty. And marvel at the fact that he, like a
true warrior, lavishes it on the recipients, the beholders, retaining
for himself only his longing. This jolt, this shock of beauty, is
stalking." http://sorcery.yuku.com/topic/2573/Stal ... -Castaneda
Thanks for posting that!
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RaINbow DIAMOND UNICORN wrote:WHAT
IS THE PURPOSE OF STALKING?
-TO MOVE AND FIX THE ASSEMBLAGE
POINT-the purpose of stalking is to move the AP as
steadily and safely as possible..FFW,204.
The art of stalking
deals with the fixation of the assemblage point on any location to
which it is displaced. TAOD,69
Nelida is a great stalker. She
stalks in dreams. her power is so unique that she can not only
transport herself but bring things with her. TSC,231.
The art of
stalking deals with the fixation of the assemblage point on any
location to which it is displaced. TAOD,69,16
.....deals with the
fixation of the assemblage point. TAOD,77
by continual practice
they moved their AP move steadily... FFW,188STALKING ALLOWS VERY SMALL SHIFTS OF THE AP
PROTECTING THE WARRIOR FROM AN ABRUPT CHANGE INTO THE SECOND
ATTENTION
sorcerers in an effort to protect themselves
from the overwhelming effect of silent knowledge, developed the
art of stalking....stalking moves the AP minutely but steadily,
thus giving sorcerers time and therefore the possibility of
buttressing themselves. POS,248STALKING : WHAT IS THE ART OF STALKING?
Thanks for looking up those quotes!
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That's wonderful Dreamways!
Stalking behaviour is a not-doing of reason. Stalking others is not the business of reason, it is the business of the will. Stalking others also involves letting intent act through you.
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i am very confused about this phrase "stalking others"... could someone please explain what this means? i don't believe "stalking others" was ever used by don juan or castaneda in words or in practice... so i have no idea what this is supposed to mean.
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Nu Lang wrote: I'd say the essence of stalking is being very fluid, mysterious in one's
actions but so sincere about it that everyone perceives it as not
mysterious at all.
there is already a word for this, and it has nothing to do with sorcery. it's called manipulation.
i thought the essence of stalking is to be so fluid that you yourself don't percieve it at all.
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Wouldn't you consider most if not all don Juan did in regard Castaneda could be considered "stalking"? He led CC gradually into deeper and deeper levels of his teachings by understanding how much CC could understand or deal with in each step. In effect he gradually exposed every weakness and shallow belief Castaneda lived by.
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mothsdream wrote:Nu Lang wrote: I'd say the essence of stalking is being very fluid, mysterious in one's
actions but so sincere about it that everyone perceives it as not
mysterious at all.
there is already a word for this, and it has nothing to do with sorcery. it's called manipulation.
i thought the essence of stalking is to be so fluid that you yourself don't percieve it at all.
Moth, read right under my lead post here...post 1, the part in parenthesis.
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mothsdream wrote:i am very confused about this phrase "stalking others"... could someone please explain what this means? i don't believe "stalking others" was ever used by don juan or castaneda in words or in practice... so i have no idea what this is supposed to mean.Stalking is a term to describe whats being done already...out there in the social molds its done to manipulate and control self and others. Stalking the way as done under CC was done to help further the lineage by affecting (shifting) in a profound way the perceptions of its members. Naguals for example stalk their apprentices and members of their party, even beyond that. Stalking is also a way to approach the world as controlled folly.
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mothsdream wrote:i am very confused about this phrase "stalking others"... could someone please explain what this means? i don't believe "stalking others" was ever used by don juan or castaneda in words or in practice... so i have no idea what this is supposed to mean.
I still can't grasp it. Been trying all day.
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Wei Shan Yang wrote:
Nagual LoneWolf wrote:Being stalked is to most unpleasant I would answer thus to master stalking one must stalk with invisible movement and sense.
Buddha was said to have stopped a stampeding elephant by meditating on love. Now that's some serious stalking
Nagual LoneWolf wrote:Elephants need love too.
Lea wrote:Even imperfect elephants?
Wei Shan Yang wrote:Especially imperfect elephants. Then maybe one day a group of humans will charge upon this elephant and he in turn will meditate upon love.
snowblind wrote:interesting thought...I never thought of stalking as having anything at all to do with love. Stalking is clear minded, intentional, and illuminating. An exercise to discover self. I guess others do it for their own reasons...perceived power, ego, unconsciousness...whatever. Everyone has their own goals I guess...
Wei Shan Yang wrote:In the story of Buddha, the elephant charged in rage for feeling wronged or threatened in some way, the love was Buddha's view of what was the reality for the elephant. Since Buddha's goal was enlightenment, getting beyond ignorance (incorrect view) was the challenge.
serendipity wrote:Hi Turin,
I doubt if there is anyone "immune" to stalking, as, if it is carried out impeccably, there is no way to tell it is false,................coz it,s not!
Whether or not, it is a hostile act, would depend on the motivations behind it. Having said that, most folks, find it objectionable to be manipulated. People like to feel they have made a willing choice, and stalking bypasses that illusion.
A "warrior", of course, would not object. It is just another enviromental factor, to dealt with, impeccably.
Viewed from an appropriate perspective, being stalked is both funny, and educational.
I was once fortunate enough to be "stalked" by a couple of master con-men, in India, ( one Canadian, one Indian,), who worked in unison, to effect the most astounding con on myself and my friends.
Even though, I knew they were up to something, I could,nt help being pulled along by the momentum of thier acting.
In the end, they got a ****-load of traveller's cheques from us, and we got the most superb demonstration of thier art.
I guess, I should have felt outraged, or otherwise upset, (as one of my companions did,....extremely!), yet, I could,nt stop laughing at the sheer wonder of thier performance. I felt truely priveleged to have been allowed to see it.
Just depends how you look at things.
from Beyond Stalking http://sorcery.yuku.com/topic/2572/Beyond-Stalking
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The idea of being stalked by another sounds unwanted perhaps. But truly its happening all the time anyway. To be stalked by a nagual...that is not unwanted. So to separate the two...what happens in tonal, and what a nagual can do. Also to look at the tonal stalking from fellow men as an opportunity to gain clarity from their actions. So then all stalking becomes a challenge and its fun.
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i understand the ideas there... but i still disagree.
for instance, when the nagual julian would appear to don juan as an old man, or a young man... he was not stalking don-juan, he stalked the ap points for those perceptions, and was so fluid that he became thirty years old, or seventy. his personal power is what shifts don juan's ap to "agree" with his.
controlled folly, from what i see, is not to make things up for other people. it is the fact that when you begin to see what is really happening with energy, you see how little it matters what your circumstances are. as a defense against what could easily turn into hopelessness, you have no choice but to pretend that what you do matters, even though you know it does not.
FFW, p. 200 "The nagual Julian's power was so impeccable that he could force anyone's assemblage point to shift and align emanations that would make him perceive whatever the nagual Julian wanted."
FFW, p. 194 "If the assemblage point is moved by the stalker's method, as in his own case, or Genaros', there is only a need for the initial catalytic act that yanks the point from its location."
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Julian also run the Four Tulios stunt, which cannot be seen in any other light than a masterful bit of stalking of don Juan by Julian.
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TEG, p 289
"In order to practice controlled folly, because it is not a way to fool or chastise people or feel superior to them, one has to be capable of laughing at oneself."
TEG, p 291
"Controlled folly doesn't mean to con people. It means, as my benefactor explained it, that warriors apply the seven basic principles of stalking to whatever they do, from the most trivial acts to life and death situations."
yes - but the four tulios again is the same situation. each of the men stalked the position of the ap. what is stalked is not a person - it is the position of the assmeblage point. the result of the stalking of course has an effect on others because it jolts them. but you do not set out to "stalk" someone.
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I disagree. The purpose of the ruse was to graphically illustrate to don Juan his lack of paying attention as well as highlighting his own sense of self-importance. The Tulios were essentially working men at Julians and therefore lower "class" than don Juan and were ignored by him until he realized they apparently were appearing in several places at once. There was no mention of AP stalking or any other nonsense. They were playacting dressing alike and acting alike.
In my opinion, as stated, this was masterful stalking for the express purpose of illustrating things within don Juan's personality that needed attention. This same sort of stalking for similar purposes has occurred from time to time on these forums, and each time the basic thing it illustrated was self-importance.
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for instance, when the nagual julian would appear to don juan as an old man, or a young man... he was not stalking don-juan, he stalked the ap points for those perceptions, and was so fluid that he became thirty years old, or seventy. his personal power is what shifts don juan's ap to "agree" with his. Moth I agree with you that power decides everything, but there is an awareness on the part of the stalker still, they follow power but they know that and often can see up ahead what is to come (omens help here), then set intent. There is the other aspect that... not all is known so there are surprises too. Power must be followed and if so the stalker will not err.
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yes - but the four tulios again is the same situation. each of the men stalked the position of the ap. what is stalked is not a person - it is the position of the assmeblage point. the result of the stalking of course has an effect on others because it jolts them. but you do not set out to "stalk" someone.Ok, Moth now I feel you are just being obstinate on the issue, splitting hairs.
APs belong to people, hence people are stalked. If you prefer to call it the ap is stalked, if that makes you feel better, thats fine with me. I say you are missing the point of it though...accepting that stalking occurs and its not 'bad'... its good, its beneficial, it draws us to the nagual.
I for a long time now...months have wanted to move away from my very direct style of communication and be more silent in my approach, but its becasue of my ability to clarify things that I keep up front, in the open and direct here. It can become tedious I've noticed. I don't like being in this place as much as I would prefer behind the scenes more, but my nature compels me to speak and speak a lot. I do feel it is keeping me at a stage though, but on another level I say if I didn't clarify things so much, who would? I mean, I do see there are a lot of people here who make very good points, but having an overall clarifyer...there's only me.
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How does one follow power?
Feel; it
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Nu Lang wrote:yes - but the four tulios again is the same situation. each of the men stalked the position of the ap. what is stalked is not a person - it is the position of the assmeblage point. the result of the stalking of course has an effect on others because it jolts them. but you do not set out to "stalk" someone.Ok, Moth now I feel you are just being obstinate on the issue, splitting hairs.
APs belong to people, hence people are stalked. If you prefer to call it the ap is stalked, if that makes you feel better, thats fine with me. I say you are missing the point of it though...accepting that stalking occurs and its not 'bad'... its good, its beneficial, it draws us to the nagual.
APs don't belong to people. APs belong to awareness.
So when stalking a particular position, you are stalking awareness.
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Nu Lang wrote:
APs belong to people, hence people are stalked. If you prefer to call it the ap is stalked, if that makes you feel better, thats fine with me. I say you are missing the point of it though...accepting that stalking occurs and its not 'bad'... its good, its beneficial, it draws us to the nagual.
i accept that you feel that way.... but i think what is happening is that perhaps we are missing each other with our meanings.
first of all - your ap makes you who you are. it does not "belong" to you. you are who you are at any given moment because of where it is. it creates you. second, when i say the ap is stalked, i do not mean that a person stalks the ap of someone else - i mean to say that he or she stalks a particular position for their individual ap, which then results in a change in who they are.
nu lang, just because we disagree on something does not mean that we both are not correct in our own ways. because i have a knowledge based in experience of this practice, i am talking about it with others here in a give and take - a debate. i am not angry or upset at anyone for having a different opinion. gonzo, for instance, is providing quotes and opinions and experiential knowledge in exactly the same way i am, and i don't see you calling him obstinate. have i resorted to labelling you for your views? it is you who are pointing fingers. even though you and i disagree, i am willing to give you the benefit of the for your views, but you are not giving me the same respect.
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Moth...bottom line is we affect others, others affect us...stalking.
I recall you saying (in RF) people who stalk others are on an ego trip...that's labeling. You know I believe that we can/should stalk others, so you were saying I'm on an ego trip, lol.
LW posted something here in Silvereye a long while back I just read yesterday, he broke apart the word 'egotrip'...ego the ID... and to take a trip, to take a trip into ourselves.. to look within. A positive take on the word. Just mention because read about it yesterday.
Sorry if my calling you obstinate seemed unfair. I have not resorted to calling people strong terms of recent, besides with DW. I do feel you are being obstinate, about the definition of stalking others, that you are making more of it than is really there. Its just about affecting others for the better, thats all I'm concerned with. There is no way to go through life without impacting or influencing other people. Many times that influence is done for the wrong reasons, I say we instead learn to do it the right way, for power, for enhancing awareness. If we all three of us agree on enhancing awareness, why are we squabbling over minor terminology...I say becasue there is more behind this then needing to get a term down.
I would call Gonzo obstinate except I happen to agree with him in this case...(a joke...about calling him obstinate...though I would..in another thread perhaps...not that he'd care...hence ...)
Now what DReamways was doing with me and with Wolf, that was stalking us. How come you don't see that? What else would you call it?
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Nu Lang wrote:
I recall you saying (in RF) people who stalk others are on an ego trip...that's labeling. You know I believe that we can/should stalk others, so you were saying I'm on an ego trip, lol.
Now what DReamways was doing with me and with Wolf, that was stalking us. How come you don't see that? What else would you call it?I think I am being obstinate here in that I do not agree that when we watch someone's actions in order to help them 'see' the err of their ways, is a kind of (Toltec) stalking. I do not agree. I have been shown however that there are techniques to stalk others, so that we can gain better sight. The aim of that is to further or own development. I can get down with that. What I can't get on board with, and I agree feels SI to me, is pointing out another's flaw, in order to help them be better.
Being involved in Toltec studies, forums, dream-groups etc for about ten years, and only seeing this new definition of stalking in the last few, I am inclined to believe that the term stalking has been loosely applied to something we do online .... and that rendition has come to stick. I wonder how it began, and am seriously considering it is something Lujan has passed on to justify a behaviour of his.
So I am in agreement with moth on this one.
I do not feel that dreamways was stalking you and Wolf. Why? Because I do not see that. You can not force a person to see what you see, any more than you can force them to change. (True -- sorcerers have ways of accomplishing this, but takes a fair amount of skill and power to do so). He may have been stalking something within himself. I have no way of knowing this unless I ask him.
It feels as though we are at an impasse. Guess it's time to move on.
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A final thought before I disconnect from this.
Carlos says in the Fire From Within:
"The purpose of stalking is twofold: first, to move the
assemblage point as steadily and safely as possible, and nothing can
do the job as well as stalking ; second, to imprint its
principles at such a deep level that the human inventory is bypassed;"
My question to this is, then, how would stalking another person, achieve this purpose??
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