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Once a warrior becomes aware of power he/she has decided these things:One: I will be my own person and whatever happens I will be true to my self.
Two: I will be open to the world with a open heart and mind.
Three: I know there is something out there. Something called power. I know that it is aware of me.
Four: I will stalk this power and see if I can find knowledge.
Five: I will cleanse my thoughts and body to be as open I can to power.
Six: I know power can come to me in many ways. Dreams, Omens, People, Animals, Elements, Inorganic Beings,Etc,
Seven: I know if I am open power will connect with me in many ways.
Eight: I realize that if I believe and intend these beliefs I will change and maybe change forever.
Nine: Power is power and it affects those like me who seek it.
Ten: Death is my advisor.
How does power connect with me you may ask? The world's teachings of Jesus Christ, Zen Masters, Yoga, Hindu and the rest all try and teach you how to change, how to be, how to live and what happens when you die. Truth is death like life is uncertain. There maybe a heaven and hell, a rebirth of spirit (reincarnation), a world where we go to as spirits and do on in a karma ascension but there is also perhaps an end. Death. Nothing. OR...the Toltec belief that one is "eaten" for their awareness by the Eagle (Nagual Creator).
Only when you die will you know what will be your fate.
A warrior maybe see all or some of these death endings but a warrior CELEBRATES LIFE when he/she dies. The warrior knows of what he/she believes. A warrior knows that in death will they meet power. Power will wait for them, it may want your awareness, it may want you to go on, it may become one with you AGAIN.
I believe this. I am a nagual man. I have always been a nagual man. I am not Don Juan. I am a warrior who has found power. I have seen power's omens and signs all my life. I have seen my foreign installation and fought with it. I have burned from within and lost my humanity and dialogue. I have created myself anew and reconstructed my dialogue. I live in controlled folly and laugh, love, cry, need, seek, dream, want, crave, taste, breathe, and raise my arms and embraced the world, its pain, its joy, its mystery and I love it.
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Reading this creates both sadness and happiness in me. I perhaps falsely think a day will come when there is no more sadness...but now I doubt that. When I really consider fully about that belief, I know some of my happiest moments were born from extreme states of sadness. Like a phoenix rising from the ashes to be reborn...arrrgggghhh, its just having to endure/acquiescence to the sadness. Otherwise the phoenix will not rise again. But always and evermore it is JOY I seek. The warrior has to be careful...joy can be a tonal beckoning, a trap to root into a tonal exisitence and accept limitations along with. So is it really joy the warrior seeks? Or liberation and the joy in that? Being with Power is the JOY that always is new to itself. The Mystery.
Everywhere on my trip I kept ending up with the same bus seat...no 10, lol. Ok, one time I got 9, another 29. Omens have always been strong for me too. I am always being spoken to. Spirit/Power is always there for us. Tonal perception seeks to deny this...such as, if I had this dialog with a neighbor they would consider me mad. Then the neighborhood would agree with them, then the whole town. We are under siege by that which wants to stop our bid for power by making us forget power. So a warrior is never without a task at hand during his/her lifetime...never. And always with a star to steer by. We just need to remember that star is as much a Mystery too. When we lose our mystery, we gain the tonal. Why would we do this? To try to put an end to sadness by realizing order. So a warrior must embrace a world WITHOUT order at times. Not total chaos of course, but being like the phoenix and acquiescing to death, or sadness which I think are linked, so that a true resurrection can occur by knowing we will never solve the riddle. The most we can do is live within the riddle and be free, as we free from that which traps us. Belief is still important, a warrior does not relinquish all beliefs, but rather learns to hear the voice of Spirit and trust in it and the omens which are always there, always changing.
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Joh 14:12
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
Joh 14:13
And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
Joh 14:14
If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
Joh 14:15
If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Joh 14:16
And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Joh 14:17
Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
Joh 14:18
I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
Joh 14:19
Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
Joh 14:20
At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
Joh 14:21
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
Joh 14:22
Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
Joh 14:23
Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
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Wei Shan Yang wrote:I perhaps falsely think a day will come when there is no more sadness...but now I doubt that. When I really consider fully about that belief, I know some of my happiest moments were born from extreme states of sadness. Like a phoenix rising from the ashes to be reborn...arrrgggghhh, its just having to endure/acquiescence to the sadness. Otherwise the phoenix will not rise again. But always and evermore it is JOY I seek. The warrior has to be careful...joy can be a tonal beckoning, a trap to root into a tonal exisitence and accept limitations along with. So is it really joy the warrior seeks? Or liberation and the joy in that? Being with Power is the JOY that always is new to itself. The Mystery.
Hello,
a warrior / shaman has a link with sadness. Something is out there and it comes and we feel sadness. Sadness is sometimes our own and sometimes it is this general sadness. We need to accept it and let it flow through us. For me this feeling of sadness is often mixed with longing that helps us seek further and learn and connect with ourselves and the Spirit. This feeling of sadness is not a bad feeling. Sometimes, especially when younger, I felt it so strong that it felt like my heart could break, but at that time it was also influenced by my circumstances and therefore went into pain. Still this feeling made me examine reality and seek nature, and stalk the force, seek power, so to speak. Therefore I could say that sadness (a big profound one, bordering on pain) can be a gateway to knowledge. This feeling of longing is very important in my opinion.
Just a few days ago I listened to an explanation concerning sadness, about how there are two types of sadness one static and the other dynamic. This helped me to look at the feeling of sadness and get a more detailed analysis of what I already knew. Basically, there are two types of sadness. One is dynamic and lifts us up. The other is static and used to push from our other brim of ourselves (when we are on the borders of our being so to speak).
So on the one hand, sadness (the dynamic kind) lifts us up, and on the other we need to act ourselves to lift ourselves up. So, sometimes we need to push and thus lift ourselves up - this is what the feeling of longing that I was talking about does. We have to want this. We are sad / longing for the Spirit. Kind of similarly to a feeling of homesickness (this is what comes closest to the term I have in mind, only in English there is the element of home in it, which might or might not be helpfull). The feeling can be so strong that we are almost, or can be in tears.
A shaman is not about the fact that he/she does not have sadness. They have sadness. And the strength of the shaman is in the fact that he/she can work/operate with this sadness. Sadness is a bit out of our reach, like dusk - this is the first type of sadness, the dynamic one.
the 2nd, static, type is that we are ready to fight for ourselves, to take care of ourselves. We only have ourselves here.. Therefore this feeling of longing after activated is something one should not do away with. We should be thankful for it. And be ready when the Spirit manifests itself, not have any preconceptions about Spirit.
What I found is that after meeting the Spirit (kind of like the first personal manifestation of it, but not sure if one can precisely describe it like this), after this great awesome moment is over, that we feel longing, we feel sadness. And that is because of the separateness. This feeling therefore is spot on and if we feel it we activate the fact that we wish, long for, want a better/closer relationship with the Spirit.
I of course do not know where you, lonewolf, wei and bob may, stand. But for me I find this interesting and decided to share this after I read what Wei posted.
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What I found is that after meeting the Spirit (kind of like the first personal manifestation of it, but not sure if one can precisely describe it like this), after this great awesome moment is over, that we feel longing, we feel sadness. And that is because of the separateness. This feeling therefore is spot on and if we feel it we activate the fact that we wish, long for, want a better/closer relationship with the Spirit.
I of course do not know where you, lonewolf, wei and bob may, stand. But for me I find this interesting and decided to share this after I read what Wei posted.
Ec 1:18
For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.
What you describe is not uncommon. There is a sorrow that comes with experiencing things of the Spirit. It is because we have to come back here. It is also because we see so much blindness and disinterest in spiritual things in those around us.
This too shall pass...
Ec 3:1
To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
Ec 3:2
A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;
Ec 3:3
A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;
Ec 3:4
A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance
Ec 3:5
A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;
Ec 3:6
A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;
Ec 3:7
A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;
Ec 3:8
A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.
Ec 3:9
What profit hath he that worketh in that wherein he laboureth?
Ec 3:10
I have seen the travail, which God hath given to the sons of men to be exercised in it.
Ec 3:11
He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.
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In reading this thread, Bob, I was trying to remember if that verse from Ecclesiastes was in the bible or in the Gospel of Thomas...I'm glad you posted it because it came to my mind immediately!
There is also a line from the GoT that I think is relevant to this topic...it is the second saying in the lineup.
(2) Jesus said, "Let him who seeks continue seeking until he finds. When he finds,
he will become troubled. When he becomes troubled, he will be astonished, and he will rule
over the All." Ruling over all does not mean, to me at least, in the sense that always leads to tyranny but rather to the sort of autonomy that perhaps only a Nagual can relate to...not being ruled by another is the same as ruling over the all, in a sense, and I'll explain my take on that because it might seem rather stilted.
It doesn't mean that the unknowable becomes known but rather that no one else makes one's own decisions...I believe that the consciousness that pervades creation is the ALL...when we flow with that awareness then we are part of the rulership of that awareness which is collective yet of which each individual has their own part whether they are aware or not...still the awareness that the few know of and apprehend is available to all, at any and all times...each with their own luminous cocoon that is not discreet but connected and interconnected...and yet able to act through its own will and intent and from the AP...all individual actions affect and influence and interact with the all as a whole...causing reactions and inspiring responses and all manner of effects...that is how I see what Jesus says by "he will rule over the All."
Becoming aware of awareness is troubling for most, if not all, to say the least. It is what one faces when choosing either to be a warrior or to not be a warrior...if the face of awareness is too troubling or perhaps the soul too timid or reluctant or hesitant...then being troubled turns into being scared...overcome by fear rather than curiosity and the desire for knowledge.
Only the warrior can make it to the point of astonishment...what we might call "wonder"...but there is sadness in that wonder, no doubt...even sadness for those who are deterred by the indescribable face of awareness from which they fled...
But I have found joy even in sadness...because the awareness of the juxtaposition quality of our world, the very thing which makes awareness possible, I suspect...brings joy in just feeling everything to its fullest...not getting taken in or down by it but fully breathing it in and then exhaling it fully in order to make room for the next aromatic experience that is both life and death...
The more aware I've become, the more sadness I feel - I don't mean I am sad more often but rather when I am sad, it is more intense...it borders on the verge of exquisite most of the time and crosses over to it now and then...the tears feel good because they are no longer the tears of self-pity and self-importance and the false need for self-justification!
I fully enjoyed reading every post in this thread! I relate to every one of you about sadness in one way or another but for the most part I think it is something about which we all feel basically the same...
And in regard to power, of which this thread addresses with LW's excellent 10 points...it is the joy that comes from the open communication with Spirit that I find to be the source of my joy...and sadness...learning and seeing things I would deny or avoid if left to my own devices...but at the same time, looking through the eyes of Spirit, I see sadness as nothing more than an integral part of our experience as humans in material existence...without sorrow, joy would have no flavor or delight!
It is power that gives us the ability to rise above duality and to express balance in our beings in all that we do...dreaming or awake, balance is our strength, I believe. I am not overly burdened by sadness nor lifted to impossible heights by joy...but if my joy increases...which it does do...so does the sadness and sorrow increase to maintain balance.
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We are all the same...we are not all one.
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Gonzo wrote:We are all the same...we are not all one.Duality is not about being homogenous or not...it is about judging the world, and self, based on beliefs of good and bad, right and wrong, etc.
Something to be rise above as far as perspective...to be freed from...which, in turn, gives a little bit more freedom to those around us, as well as ourselves.
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watergaze wrote:What I found is that after meeting the Spirit (kind of like the first personal manifestation of it, but not sure if one can precisely describe it like this), after this great awesome moment is over, that we feel longing, we feel sadness. And that is because of the separateness. This feeling therefore is spot on and if we feel it we activate the fact that we wish, long for, want a better/closer relationship with the Spirit.
I agree!
There are times when we can't feel Spirit, in a joyful sense. As such, then there seems, at least to me, no point in exisitence if one cannot FEEL connected to Spirit inside. The longing is enough to get one activated to make important changes, which brings them closer to Spirit, even if they ARE Spirit, it matters not what one says or even thinks, all that matters is what one FEELS.
Absence makes the heart grow fonder, and this is true in case of Spirit. Absence of that sense of presence in us, makes us seek that. The journey is transformational...its meant to happen this way. Sadness, as you say, is a catalyst.
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Bob May wrote:What I found is that after meeting the Spirit (kind of like the first personal manifestation of it, but not sure if one can precisely describe it like this), after this great awesome moment is over, that we feel longing, we feel sadness. And that is because of the separateness. This feeling therefore is spot on and if we feel it we activate the fact that we wish, long for, want a better/closer relationship with the Spirit.
I of course do not know where you, lonewolf, wei and bob may, stand. But for me I find this interesting and decided to share this after I read what Wei posted.
Ec 1:18
For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.
What you describe is not uncommon. There is a sorrow that comes with experiencing things of the Spirit. It is because we have to come back here. It is also because we see so much blindness and disinterest in spiritual things in those around us.
This too shall pass...
Ec 3:1
To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
Ec 3:2
A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;
Ec 3:3
A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;
Ec 3:4
A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance
Ec 3:5
A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;
Ec 3:6
A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;
Ec 3:7
A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;
Ec 3:8
A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.
Ec 3:9
What profit hath he that worketh in that wherein he laboureth?
Ec 3:10
I have seen the travail, which God hath given to the sons of men to be exercised in it.
Ec 3:11
He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.
Nice Bob!
Would you elaborate on this one...
[/tr]Ec 3:11He
hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world
in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh
from the beginning to the end.
There seems to be a gap, or leap in understanding from the first statement of sentence to the second half.
also he hath set the world
in their heart (part 1)
so that no man can find out the work that God maketh
from the beginning to the end. (part 2)
There seems to be a missing qualifier. Why does setting the world in man's heart make him not find out the work from beginning to end?
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jezebel wrote:In reading this thread, Bob, I was trying to remember if that verse from Ecclesiastes was in the bible or in the Gospel of Thomas...I'm glad you posted it because it came to my mind immediately!
There is also a line from the GoT that I think is relevant to this topic...it is the second saying in the lineup.
(2) Jesus said, "Let him who seeks continue seeking until he finds. When he finds,
he will become troubled. When he becomes troubled, he will be astonished, and he will rule
over the All." Ruling over all does not mean, to me at least, in the sense that always leads to tyranny but rather to the sort of autonomy that perhaps only a Nagual can relate to...not being ruled by another is the same as ruling over the all, in a sense, and I'll explain my take on that because it might seem rather stilted.
It doesn't mean that the unknowable becomes known but rather that no one else makes one's own decisions...I believe that the consciousness that pervades creation is the ALL...when we flow with that awareness then we are part of the rulership of that awareness which is collective yet of which each individual has their own part whether they are aware or not...still the awareness that the few know of and apprehend is available to all, at any and all times...each with their own luminous cocoon that is not discreet but connected and interconnected...and yet able to act through its own will and intent and from the AP...all individual actions affect and influence and interact with the all as a whole...causing reactions and inspiring responses and all manner of effects...that is how I see what Jesus says by "he will rule over the All."
Becoming aware of awareness is troubling for most, if not all, to say the least. It is what one faces when choosing either to be a warrior or to not be a warrior...if the face of awareness is too troubling or perhaps the soul too timid or reluctant or hesitant...then being troubled turns into being scared...overcome by fear rather than curiosity and the desire for knowledge.
Only the warrior can make it to the point of astonishment...what we might call "wonder"...but there is sadness in that wonder, no doubt...even sadness for those who are deterred by the indescribable face of awareness from which they fled...
But I have found joy even in sadness...because the awareness of the juxtaposition quality of our world, the very thing which makes awareness possible, I suspect...brings joy in just feeling everything to its fullest...not getting taken in or down by it but fully breathing it in and then exhaling it fully in order to make room for the next aromatic experience that is both life and death...
The more aware I've become, the more sadness I feel - I don't mean I am sad more often but rather when I am sad, it is more intense...it borders on the verge of exquisite most of the time and crosses over to it now and then...the tears feel good because they are no longer the tears of self-pity and self-importance and the false need for self-justification!
I fully enjoyed reading every post in this thread! I relate to every one of you about sadness in one way or another but for the most part I think it is something about which we all feel basically the same...
And in regard to power, of which this thread addresses with LW's excellent 10 points...it is the joy that comes from the open communication with Spirit that I find to be the source of my joy...and sadness...learning and seeing things I would deny or avoid if left to my own devices...but at the same time, looking through the eyes of Spirit, I see sadness as nothing more than an integral part of our experience as humans in material existence...without sorrow, joy would have no flavor or delight!
It is power that gives us the ability to rise above duality and to express balance in our beings in all that we do...dreaming or awake, balance is our strength, I believe. I am not overly burdened by sadness nor lifted to impossible heights by joy...but if my joy increases...which it does do...so does the sadness and sorrow increase to maintain balance.
Liked your post as well Bel...so much in there resonated.
I'd say after reading all this, there is one true horror and that is apathy...to not feel. Sadness as you say, can be a form of joy, of presence and being alive and connected to somethign greater then ourselves. Learning to balance joy and sadness may be the survial factor, so the extremes do not overwhelm us.
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Nagual LoneWolf wrote:Once a warrior becomes aware of power he/she has decided these things:One: I will be my own person and whatever happens I will be true to my self.
Two: I will be open to the world with a open heart and mind.
Three: I know there is something out there. Something called power. I know that it is aware of me.
Four: I will stalk this power and see if I can find knowledge.
Five: I will cleanse my thoughts and body to be as open I can to power.
Six: I know power can come to me in many ways. Dreams, Omens, People, Animals, Elements, Inorganic Beings,Etc,
Seven: I know if I am open power will connect with me in many ways.
Eight: I realize that if I believe and intend these beliefs I will change and maybe change forever.
Nine: Power is power and it affects those like me who seek it.
Ten: Death is my advisor.
Number 5 best illustrates sadness as a catalyst. When we see we are not fully with Spirit, with Power, we ask ourselves, what selfishness inside us makes us perceive separatism, duality, as talked about here. Then, due to being sad (disconnect from Spirit type of sadness watergaze spoke of), we seek to correct the connection, make it stronger by eliminating what is blocking or restricting its free flow. Motivation. A joke among acting circles...those people who make films and TV programs, is asking the question "what is my motivation?" (meaning, what is my character about?) That helps them get their bearings and decide how to proceed most effectively. Acting with a purpose of intent.
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Gonzo wrote:We are all the same...we are not all one.We are all one...we are not all the same.
Works yeah?
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Nu Lang wrote:
Nice Bob!
Would you elaborate on this one...
[/tr]
Ec 3:11
He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.
There seems to be a gap, or leap in understanding from the first statement of sentence to the second half.
also he hath set the world in their heart (part 1)
so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end. (part 2)
There seems to be a missing qualifier. Why does setting the world in man's heart make him not find out the work from beginning to end?
Hi Nu Lang,
To me this picture says it all. This world is not where it is at. A mystic is always looking beyond the obvious. Appearances decieve.
Solomon was said to be wiser than any man. He was renoun for his wisdom.
The book of Ecclesiastes starts out with the statement that all is vanity. That word means "for nothing." Then he goes on to speak about all his travels in search of wisdom and understanding. He says that he sees the work of man's hands is all that is worth anything and then in the end he says that this too is vanity. All for nothing.
Solomon was indeed wiser than any man on earth but his wisdom was earthly wisdom. He did not break through that veil to the eternal.
Lu 11:31
The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with the men of this generation, and condemn them: for she came from the utmost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.
Mt 11:11
Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
Mt 11:12
And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.
Solomon's fame was so great that the queen of Sheba came to hear him. John the baptist was the greatest of the old testament prophets, and in fact the greatest man born. But he came to tell of one greater than him.
Jesus came with a new message. The Kingdom of Heaven was at hand.
It is not gained by violence or by effort like Solomon thought. Not by the work of our own hands. Or the effort of our minds.
The least of us that make it to the Kingdom of Heaven are greater than either Solomon or John. But it is not by building a tower to God or by climbing some ladder. Jesus is the ladder. The Kingdom is available here and now.
In the Gospel of Thomas Jesus tells Thomas that what men are seeking is all around them but they do not see it.
God has set the world in our hearts. Do we look at the world or look through the world to see what lies beyond it?
Solomon got to the point of seeing the world of illusion. All is for nothing. Everything dies or is worn away to nothing over time. Even rocks.
Great effort brought him to this point. But he did not see past this.
Unlike Don Juan and many other seers from various schools of thought I do not see the world being illusion. Rather it is analogy. God wrote the book of this world in the same way He wrote this universe we are caught up in. By allegory.
There are 4 levels of interpreting scripture according to Hebrew scholars. Literal, implied, allegorical and mystical.
Each is an excercise that leads us to the next level of interpretation.
This would also apply to "reading" the world around us.
The stories of the Old Testament are stories that pertain to our spiritual progression. Same goes for the stories we find ourselves caught up in in this world. This is the third level of interpretation.
But there is a fourth level. Paul, in the New Testament referred to the scriptures as the "Oracles of God." Oracles speak directly to us.
Solomon was troubled. We are not supposed to stop there because what was not available to him is available to us.
We are to become astonished.
The man in the woodcut is seeking by looking behind the scenes of everything this world has to offer. He has found and is astonished.
There is a saying in the Western Mystic tradition that says "The veil that conceals also reveals."
Keeping the attitude of "I don't understand this" and "what does this mean?" in seeking what lies behind the veils, whether in reading scripture or the world around us, helps us to stay in this seeking state of mind. Praying for Wisdom and Understanding which are gifts of the Spirit is of paramount importance.
1co 2:12
Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
1co 2:13
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1co 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1co 2:15
But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
1co 2:16
For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
The spirit of the world reigns in man because of the fall. Because of this as Solomon said we cannot find out the work of God from beginning to end.
And you are perfectly correct there is "a gap or leap in understanding." And that gap must be bridged in order to find out that "work of God."
Joh 6:28
Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
Joh 6:29
Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
It is by belief that we recieve this spiritual level of understanding. Then it is not effort anymore. It is a gift. This does not compute with our natural understanding. We must be lifted across this gap.
In Revelations Jesus refers to himself as Alpha and Omega. The beginning and end.
Solomon said no man can find out the work of God from beginning to end. He was right.
We must recieve the Spirit of God in order to reach across the abyss. To go from troubled to astonished.
Until then we are operating from the spirit and mind of man.
After that we are operating from the mind of Christ and the Spirit of God.
In the Qabalah, that abyss is called Daath, (Knowledge)
This is knowledge that is experiential in it's character. Becoming "one with" something as a man and wife become one body during intercourse.
But to cross that abyss is not possible for "Natural Man."
Joh 12:32
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
Joh 12:33
This he said, signifying what death he should die.
Joh 3:13
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
Joh 3:14
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
So what is impossible with man is possible with God.
This is the abyss that Solomon came to. But what was not yet available to him is available to us.
We are surrounded by the Kingdom of Heaven.
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Bob May wrote:
Hi Nu Lang,
I really love this pic! This one's in color, nice
Thanks for explaining the qualifier Bob. Do you think its that we know God from beginning to end, or rather in God there is seen no beginning or end, whereas in worldly view its beginning/end, cause/effect. I think so, I think in 'worldly mind', explanations are sought in linear fashion which means to the one seeking in such a way...something must begin and something must end. Yet that's just a thought.
For example, one driving in their car sees a person walking along a desert highway. Linear mind...may assume, one its a person who is walking, two the person was born here on earth and thus they will die, and three, that person therefore must be just like them.
A seer/sorcerer may see, one its not a person who is walking, two its birth/death are unknowns, and three, they are not just like them...
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Bob May wrote:What you describe is not uncommon. There is a sorrow that comes with experiencing things of the Spirit. It is because we have to come back here. It is also because we see so much blindness and disinterest in spiritual things in those around us.
This too shall pass...
Although I agree that sadness is also caused by the lot of the fellow man I was stressing more the very private and intimate relationship between ourselves and the Spirit.
Thank you for sharing the Ecclasiastes. I admire your path through these texts, and really wonder how you can make sense of them all (also meaning how you can show them having sense) . Most of all I used to wonder at how they really say stuff and are meaningful. However, because this form is so alien to me I surely most value spoken words from one's own heart. Those I can best feel and answer. Still, I really like reading your "bible posts" .
However you saying “This too shall pass” makes it seem like one day there will be no sadness, whereas the quotes you posted are just saying there is time for happiness and time for sadness etc, just like there is time for dawn and time for dusk, which does not mean that one day there will be no dawn or no dusk.. I agree with the quotes, there is time for sadness (to weep) and time for happiness (to laugh). Both are valid and natural. So, I wonder how you meant it.
I am not that far to see, but have it from an excellent source that it will not pass very soon (to say the least) .
Bob May wrote:In the Qabalah, that abyss is called Daath, (Knowledge)
This is knowledge that is experiential in it's character. Becoming "one with" something as a man and wife become one body during intercourse.
But to cross that abyss is not possible for "Natural Man."
What would you compare this abyss to in CC's teachings? Is it the loss of human forms? In shamanic terms it would be death I guess, how they die and come back again. When reading your posts I often read Daath as Death . This concept you write about is something totally new, I have no knowledge of it, so I am trying to understand it through what I know..
P.S. Bob, some of your posts are hard to read, because you use a similar font color to the overall background of the forum (here it is actually better than in other discussions where the background itself is black, which makes it practically invisible). I need to highlight them to read them, but sometimes you mix this color and that and it is not clear that there is another sentence in a different color following. Sometimes I highlight all your posts, just to be sure I did not miss anything. Kind of inconvenient .
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watergaze wrote:However you saying “This too shall pass” makes it seem like one day there will be no sadness, whereas the quotes you posted are just saying there is time for happiness and time for sadness etc, just like there is time for dawn and time for dusk, which does not mean that one day there will be no dawn or no dusk.. I agree with the quotes, there is time for sadness (to weep) and time for happiness (to laugh). Both are valid and natural. So, I wonder how you meant it.
I am not that far to see, but have it from an excellent source that it will not pass very soon (to say the least) .
Bob May wrote:Ec 3:1
To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
Hm, I see the quotes you posted are talking about seasons, which suggests a certain repeating / recurring. Though some might imply that they are final and not recurring, it is not really clear, all of them could be seen as cycles (even birth and death). So, what type is sadness?
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where is the edit option?
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Jezebel wrote:But I have found joy even in sadness...because the awareness of the juxtaposition quality of our world, the very thing which makes awareness possible, I suspect...brings joy in just feeling everything to its fullest...not getting taken in or down by it but fully breathing it in and then exhaling it fully in order to make room for the next aromatic experience that is both life and death...
I know the feeling of great joy but where sadness comes. It is because I feel my body filling with love for everything, I am happy and sad at the same moment (but other times I feel this love and there is no sadness, just joy). It can happen in nature (but even elsewhere) and I see how it all is, whole and I feel I am alone. Something missing. Feeling alive. Feeling this tingling, the longing. I wish with all my heart and soul, I know I am part of the bigger and I know I am unique and that I can feel and see and experience through my own devices. Happy to experience it all but sad for my separate self. I feel reaching out for what makes me whole. Longing for it, beckoning it, here I am and I miss you so. I love it over here even when I am separate, but I feel I can be and wish to be whole.
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”Nu Land” wrote:I'd say after reading all this, there is one true horror and that is apathy...to not feel. Sadness as you say, can be a form of joy, of presence and being alive and connected to somethign greater then ourselves. Learning to balance joy and sadness may be the survial factor, so the extremes do not overwhelm us.
Oh yes, apathy. That word sounds negative. But if we just say absence of feeling, we have a different feeling (heh) of the whole thing. Absence of feeling is also something useful (a long time ago I was very scared of this when I saw the possibility that I could be absent of feeling, I was afraid to cross into such a reality, afraid of who I will be, what will happen to me, that I will lose an important part, that I will become somebody else, somebody cold, frozen, I was not sure I could survive that and come back to myself again).
Sometimes I know how I feel even when not feeling the feeling. Might sound strange, but that is how it is in a nutshell. For example I know I love someone but I do not feel the feeling of love spreading through my body. Or when someone dies I am sad, but do not feel sad, do not experience the feeling itself. Some emotions maybe drain you and so one does not have to feel them all the time, or at all. But one can consciously allow himself to feel or want to feel them and they emerge then (but it takes a kind of resetting). Apathy for me is a kind of semi-consciousness, stupefaction. This is not what I am talking about here. One is totally by one's senses, with an acute mind. Maybe ruthlessness is what it can be called (i had a slightly different notion of ruthlessness but now that I think of it I guess it could go with that term as well), maybe in between normal and ruthlessness.
Apathy also implies a certain indifference, not so with (partial) ruthlessness. I always used the word ruthless when in a situation where one had to act impeccably and where feelings get in the way so one has to get over himself (get into a state where one is over himself) so to speak for the sake of the highest possible option.
I am very aware that it is just a position of the AP, thus the resetting if one wants it differently, one needs to jump back to a different position. Some feelings drain you of power/energy so bad you get tired and even need to go sleep. Some just take a lot of attention, like love - in certain moments it is counterproductive to have the feeling. The best thing is to let 'the other' decide this, it just kind of naturally hapens a lot of the times. And I just realize where I am and decide if it is where i want to be. So I feel it is more natural and less likely that i will mess up due to my ignorance .
I suppose it could be seen as part of self control. For example not to fall in love when one does not let oneself. If I do not want to put myself in that position, if I do not open myself, then it is not possible.
May people experiences the falling in love in spite of themselves and think falling in love just happens, that it cannot be controlled. Not true. But a different thing is if it is good to control or not. I am not going into that part of thought now . I'd just say that we should always know what we are doing..
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Nu Lang wrote:Number 5 best illustrates sadness as a catalyst. When we see we are not fully with Spirit, with Power, we ask ourselves, what selfishness inside us makes us perceive separatism, duality, as talked about here. Then, due to being sad (disconnect from Spirit type of sadness watergaze spoke of), we seek to correct the connection, make it stronger by eliminating what is blocking or restricting its free flow. Motivation. A joke among acting circles...those people who make films and TV programs, is asking the question "what is my motivation?" (meaning, what is my character about?) That helps them get their bearings and decide how to proceed most effectively. Acting with a purpose of intent.
Yep. I think it fits well with the overall topic of this thread… It helps us open up to the Spirit and thus to power.
Like the motivation thought
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Nu Lang wrote:
Bob May wrote:
Hi Nu Lang,
I really love this pic! This one's in color, nice
Thanks for explaining the qualifier Bob. Do you think its that we know God from beginning to end, or rather in God there is seen no beginning or end, whereas in worldly view its beginning/end, cause/effect. I think so, I think in 'worldly mind', explanations are sought in linear fashion which means to the one seeking in such a way...something must begin and something must end. Yet that's just a thought.
For example, one driving in their car sees a person walking along a desert highway. Linear mind...may assume, one its a person who is walking, two the person was born here on earth and thus they will die, and three, that person therefore must be just like them.
A seer/sorcerer may see, one its not a person who is walking, two its birth/death are unknowns, and three, they are not just like them...
Ec 3:11
He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.
I want to clarify something. John the Baptist and Solomon had the Spirit of God. They were way beyond men of their time or men having been born up to the time they were born. Jesus said a greater than John was here and he also said a greater than Solomon was here.
There is something more concerning the Spirit available now to those who enter tyhe Kingdom of heaven.
There are many things we can learn from scripture. We may get a revelation concerning a specific scripture and years later learn something more and different from it. This does not mean what we first got was wrong. We just got more out of it because there is more hidden there. And sometimes it speaks to us.
There is no beginning or end in God. Our spirit comes from God and returns to God. John came from God in a different way because it specifically states that, "there was a man who came from God who's name was John." Jesus likewise. Our souls are of the earth. God breathed (Ruach spirit) on the dust of the earth and he became a living soul (Nepesch soul). Later we were given coats of skins (bodies.)
because man goeth to his long home, and the mourners go about the streets:
Ec 12:6
Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.
Ec 12:7
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
I think Solomon is pondering this life and it's end. If the dust returns to the ground and the spirit returns to God who gave it, What happens to us?
what is our "long home"?
He is speaking of cycles. The spirit returns to God. The dust returns to the earth.
Ec 1:3
What profit hath a man of all his labour which he taketh UNDER THE SUN?
Ec 1:9
The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and There is no new thing UNDER THE SUN.
Ec 1:14
I have seen all the works that are done UNDER THE SUN; and, behold, all is vanity and vexation of spirit
He is speaking about all he has learned about this realm of cycles. Time and space. But pondering what lies beyond.
He knew everytrhing there was to know "under the sun."
I do not believe he is speaking about the physical sun but a level of awareness. The sphere of Tipareth in the Tree of life above is called the sun center and the Christ center.
Above that is the abyss Daath. This Christ center recieves an influx or influence from the supernal triangle. The Godhead.
This is the place or state of awareness that Jesus functioned from as a man here on earth. All of his thoughts, words and actions were revelation from above the abyss. From the Father, Chokmah Wisdom.
Believers are promised that we are growing into him. That "we shall know even as we are known" and "they shall all be taught of God."
This is because of the Spirit being poured out on all flesh at Pentecost. The Air aspect of Baptism.
Though Solomon had much wisdom an the Spirit of God it did not manifest to such a level that is now available to mankind.
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watergaze wrote:
However you saying “This too shall pass” makes it seem like one day there will be no sadness, whereas the quotes you posted are just saying there is time for happiness and time for sadness etc, just like there is time for dawn and time for dusk, which does not mean that one day there will be no dawn or no dusk.. I agree with the quotes, there is time for sadness (to weep) and time for happiness (to laugh). Both are valid and natural. So, I wonder how you meant it.
I am not that far to see, but have it from an excellent source that it will not pass very soon (to say the least) .
It passes because of the cycles and it also will pass entirely. It also can be because of problems in life. We all have them.
While we are here beneath a certain level of understanding we must learn to balance the good things with the bad.
My sixteen year old son had a close friend die just a few weeks ago by his own hand. My son had been planning on spending the night at his house that coming weekend. He was actually the last person who had any contact with his friend by text message the day of his death.
How can my son balance that? Why hadn't this boy had someone to talk to that would instill in him the need to balance his sorrow with something better?
We are surrounded by death and life. Choose life. It is as simple as that but it is an effort to put into practice.
Bob May wrote:
In the Qabalah, that abyss is called Daath, (Knowledge)
This is knowledge that is experiential in it's character. Becoming "one with" something as a man and wife become one body during intercourse.
But to cross that abyss is not possible for "Natural Man."
What would you compare this abyss to in CC's teachings? Is it the loss of human forms? In shamanic terms it would be death I guess, how they die and come back again. When reading your posts I often read Daath as Death . This concept you write about is something totally new, I have no knowledge of it, so I am trying to understand it through what I know..
To actually experience something spiritual instead of just reading it or accepting it in theory would be touching on Daath. True experiential knowledge. It has nothing to do with death. It is Revelation. Something of another, higher realm than we ever imagined existed actually touching us. I never knew what it felt like to be a father until I watched my first son being born. Then it was a miracle.
This is an analogy of course, but an appropriate one.
P.S. Bob, some of your posts are hard to read, because you use a similar font color to the overall background of the forum (here it is actually better than in other discussions where the background itself is black, which makes it practically invisible). I need to highlight them to read them, but sometimes you mix this color and that and it is not clear that there is another sentence in a different color following. Sometimes I highlight all your posts, just to be sure I did not miss anything. Kind of inconvenient .
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We seem to be speaking about balance here.
My teacher always cautioned against wild swings of emotion. To go back and forth from great joy to great sorrow is not balance.
The Qabalah is the study of balance. There are two ways to approach the tree of life.
An occultist performs certain magical ceremonies in order to experience the power of the Sephiroth and the awareness symbolised by the Paths.
A Mystic goes up the middle pillar.
The former may achieve their aim faster but it is more dangerous and can easily lead to mental imbalance.
The latter keeps the goal of Union with God in mind and fosters stability of mind.
Without this stability, touching with Power on the tree can be deadly.
There is a Major Arcana Tarot card for each path. You will notice that the three cards going up the middle pillar are the World card, Temperence and the High Priestess. Studying these three cards and their symbolism and also meditating on them will help bring on awarenesses that strengthen balance.
These cards are symbols of the awarenesses that they can bring to the fourfront in our consciousness. They are subjective where the Sephiroth are objective.
Take the second card up the middle pillar for example.
There is an angel standing one foot on water and the other on land. In his hands he is pouring water from one goblet into another. When it is full he will have to change the one that is being poured into the one that is pouring. On his breast is the symbol of fire, the ultimate cleansing agent. The refining of metal is accomplished by fire. The hardening of metal is also done with fire. There is a rainbow above the head of the angel that is the symbol of Promise. We do not accomplish spirtual progression, it is a gift. There is a continuing path behind the angel that leads to a golden crown in the distant mountain range. This is the symbol of the highest aspect of God the Unknown (Kether) up at the top of the tree. Though we cannot know God in His entirety we can experience something of Kether. The Unknowable being above the tree as the Limitless Light.
All of these symbols speak of balance in motion. Ever try to balance a bycycle without moving forward? It is almost impossible. But by seeking the source of all, and keeping the goal in mind we are able to balance on the way up the tree.
In the mean time we are blessed with Spiritual blessings coming down from above the abyss. Things like the "peace that passes all understanding ", and "Joy" and the knowledge of "God's love spread abroad in our hearts."
Joh 14:16
And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Joh 14:17
Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
Joh 14:18
I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
This is also something Solomon did not have.
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Bob May wrote:It passes because of the cycles and it also will pass entirely. It also can be because of problems in life. We all have them.
While we are here beneath a certain level of understanding we must learn to balance the good things with the bad.
Hm .
Bob wrote:My sixteen year old son had a close friend die just a few weeks ago by his own hand. My son had been planning on spending the night at his house that coming weekend. He was actually the last person who had any contact with his friend by text message the day of his death.
How can my son balance that? Why hadn't this boy had someone to talk to that would instill in him the need to balance his sorrow with something better?
We are surrounded by death and life. Choose life. It is as simple as that but it is an effort to put into practice. Bob wrote:We seem to be speaking about balance here.
My teacher always cautioned against wild swings of emotion. To go back and forth from great joy to great sorrow is not balance.
I think I understand your point.
I understand that what I said could be taken from a negative point of view as well. But I also said my emotions were too strong and bordered on pain, which was not a healthy state. I know this all the more now, when they are different and I do not go into these extremes anymore. Emotions are (should be) comfortable, mine are, and yes I agree balance is very important. Still, I see the feeling of sadness for what it is. And if we are healthy still this feeling comes. And as I said it has a practicality to it. I remember DJ said sadness is something like floating around the universe and that we just kind of pick it up because of that (paraphrase, no idea how exactly this was expressed or in what book)
It is hard if something like this happens to a young person, because yes, they are not balanced very well yet (I wasn't and my emotions were strong and painful). My most straining effort went not into dreaming or seeing or any of these 'other worldly' stuff, but into normal life, balancing myself, my emotions, becoming healthier, into cleansing and making myself more whole.
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watergaze wrote:What would you compare this abyss to in CC's teachings? Is it the loss of human forms? In shamanic terms it would be death I guess, how they die and come back again. When reading your posts I often read Daath as Death . This concept you write about is something totally new, I have no knowledge of it, so I am trying to understand it through what I know.. Bob wrote:To actually experience something spiritual instead of just reading it or accepting it in theory would be touching on Daath. True experiential knowledge. It has nothing to do with death. It is Revelation. Something of another, higher realm than we ever imagined existed actually touching us. I never knew what it felt like to be a father until I watched my first son being born. Then it was a miracle.
This is an analogy of course, but an appropriate one.
The way you describe it it seems as something we all know/do/experience. Experiencing.. Gaining knowledge through experiencing. Somehow it seemed as something much more mystical when you were writing about it before . Now I am not sure anymore, will have to reread what you wrote.. Though, ok, you saying "true" knowledge makes it a bit more mystical .
Bob wrote:
In Revelations Jesus refers to himself as Alpha and Omega. The beginning and end.
Solomon said no man can find out the work of God from beginning to end. He was right.
We must recieve the Spirit of God in order to reach across the abyss. To go from troubled to astonished.
Until then we are operating from the spirit and mind of man.
After that we are operating from the mind of Christ and the Spirit of God.
...
In the Qabalah, that abyss is called Daath, (Knowledge)
This is knowledge that is experiential in it's character. Becoming "one with" something as a man and wife become one body during intercourse.
But to cross that abyss is not possible for "Natural Man."
...
So what is impossible with man is possible with God.
This is the abyss that Solomon came to. But what was not yet available to him is available to us.
We are surrounded by the Kingdom of Heaven.
We must receive the spirit of God in order to reach across the abyss = we must receive the spirit of God in order to reach knowledge through experience..
Before we receive the spirit of God we are operating from the spirit and mind of man.
I guess I was asking about how this receiving of the spirit of God happens, that was the question about losing human form or dying. For me it seemed that is what opens to us the crossing over the abyss - the abyss I could imagine at least . What makes us very close with Spirit - which in my mind kind of resonates with your "receive the spirit of God"
But now from what you tell me it looks like I mixed apples with pears . Could you please just say this in some layman's terms? Are you saying that to have true experiential knowledge we need to receive the spirit of God? What is spirit of God in this sense? How do we receive it?
I am not sure I am very good with analogies . Thank you for the fresh breeze of inspiring ideas though..
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