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Hawkeye Crow wrote:
Doggone it , Bob May, your criticism of sorcery shows that you don't know what sorcery is. Sorcery is the manipulation of perception. The WHOLE world is
doing that very thing without any purpose other than self-reflection. ESPECIALLY Religions!
Bingo.
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grandspeculator wrote:
The Death Defier, for one.
The death defier only got out of the inorganic realm and came back to earth. He did not say that he found freedom then returned to tell everyone what it
was and how to get there. What I read was that he merged with Carol Tiggs in the hopes of finding freedom. What I saw was that he merged with Carlos instead,
and then merged with an army of other death defiers.
To be honest, I was told what the nagual's freedom is, a while back. I had it explained to me in dreaming, completely out of the blue. I wish somebody
had warned me about it first, like I am doing for you now. Seek out the nature of a sorcerer's freedom in dreaming, if you are a sorcerer, and brace
yourself for the answer. That would be the best way to find out.
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grandspeculator wrote:
**** Dreamways... your experience and knowledge of the dynamics of the inorganic realm, the old seers, dreaming, subtle realms and the AP alone could fill a
book... a good book!
There is already a new generation of sorcerers on earth, far more advanced for their age than I ever was. I want to read one of their books.
But I dunno... indirectly inviting others to "play" with the inorganics could be counterproductive... perhaps even karmic for you.
Certain people, sorcerers that is, are born with a connection with inorganic beings. You either have it or you don't. Nothing I say can change that
for a person, so I ain't taking the blame for anyone moving their assemblage point or seeing energy.
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OK, here is something for both sorcerers and hamsters. Freedom and death walk hand in hand, not because they are the same thing, but because they both end
your life. Freedom is rarely enjoyable. Freedom and death are always just around the corner, waiting to *** everything up. If death is an adviser, then
freedom is a mugger.
If a nagual is ready, willing and able to lead people to freedom then I say more power to him or her, but it seem like it would be a huge headache and not
much fun. Since I'm just a double being, and not a nagual, I don't have to deal with this issue, thank god. I don't follow any naguals because
freedom is irreversible, and I haven't decided if I really want it yet, especially forever.
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"Mystics outside the nagual tradition don't see the same things. The development of the second attention in nagual terms is unique."
"The knowledge of the AP is only known, as far as I know, by two or three traditions: Nagual seers, peruvian shamans (I think) and the indian kaula
tantrics (the last two don't publicly discuss it)."
As far as seeing the same things, other than C. W. Leadbeater I don't think I've read about the filaments of light but have of the egg. But I have seen
it a few times. C.W. Leadbeater considered himself a "clairvoyant", but he was around writing in the late 1800's and early 1900's. It could
just be the terminology of the times.
The AP is unique and if I'm reading you right these systems would all fall into "natural magic" realm.
I have thought about this (the fibers) and can only come to the conclusion that it is a very specific path or AP position that results from a very specific
system and that in other systems of knowledge it is kept secret. As a "key I will not give you."
This type of "key" can be withheld from a student so that a teacher can judge whether a student has had a genuine experience or is just repeating
what he heard or read somewhere. When I related the experience in which I saw the fibers to my teacher, he was not suprized at all but spoke about the
experience itself.
He was also very aware of withholding key elements for this reason.
On the other hand, the rest of the definition of "seeing" which is to know something or some persons thoughts and intent directly with no need to
interpret IS taught in other systems. I have experienced this myself and I think of it as seeing the soul of the person.
Even seeing aura requires interpretation. Not so with seeing the soul directly. There are levels of this also. I have experience it on two levels and in either
case the person does not appear human.
It is no less "seeing" than Don Juan's description in my opinion. Just different.
As far as moving the AP, (if it exists and I really have no reason to disbelieve it) the same thing can be accomplished by moving the consciousness in
meditation and probably is.
Why would a person care or even pay attention to this if they were using the method taught to them and it worked?
And maybe the AP IS the consciousness.
I just realized something. Don Juan said in one of the books that the shift to the left of the AP was in reality a shift toward the center of the layers of the
"Onion."
That would mean that the person was just moving the consciousness "deeper" into the subconscious realm. (Solar plexus area which is where dreaming
"stems from" Eagle's Gift page 220) This would fit with what I've been saying that the sorcerer's natural type magic is from the
subconscious, elemental realm.
This makes sense on many levels.
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"Grand...For your BS you should open your own board...if you don't have one already...you are starting to bore the **** out of me...again. Need a hearing aid by any chance? "
Glad to see you are feeling better Syd!
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Hi Bob,
"Doggone it , Bob May, your criticism of sorcery shows that you don't know what sorcery is. Sorcery is the manipulation of perception. The WHOLE world
is doing that very thing without any purpose other than self-reflection."
I'm not criticising. I am analysing and comparing to better understand the systems I've been involved with and the experiences I've had. Don Juan
also warned against Sorcery. His goal was to be a man of knowledge.
A road map is of no use unless you see an arrow pointing to a point on the map that says YOU ARE HERE.
You are correct. I don't know what sorcery is. But I am one if I take Don Juan's word for it. I have stopped the world.
It is an initiation. A fact.
What I experienced going through that I do not understand. I may never understand.
I am also a Christian Qabalist. A Mystic and a Moron.
I am not too good at any of these things but that does not change the reality.
I have also gone through initiations in those systems of knowledge. I have experienced many things and I am still a moron. So be it.
But I am a moron that will not stop wondering or questioning.
I am also stubborn.
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"It is a trap. The entire world of sorcery is."
"Well, that's what I would expect any judeo-christian facist to say."
Again, I'm taking this from Don Juan. I don't think he was either Judeo-Christian or facist. His goal for Carlos was for him to become a "man of
knowledge."
And not become trapped by either the world of normal men or the world of sorcerers. Both were equally illusion.
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Bob May wrote:
"Mystics outside the nagual tradition don't see the same things. The development of the second attention in nagual terms is unique."
"The knowledge of the AP is only known, as far as I know, by two or three traditions: Nagual seers, peruvian shamans (I think) and the indian kaula
tantrics (the last two don't publicly discuss it)."
As far as seeing the same things, other than C. W. Leadbeater I don't think I've read about the filaments of light but have of the egg. But I have
seen it a few times. C.W. Leadbeater considered himself a "clairvoyant", but he was around writing in the late 1800's and early 1900's. It
could just be the terminology of the times.
The AP is unique and if I'm reading you right these systems would all fall into "natural magic" realm.
I have thought about this (the fibers) and can only come to the conclusion that it is a very specific path or AP position that results from a very specific
system and that in other systems of knowledge it is kept secret. As a "key I will not give you."
This type of "key" can be withheld from a student so that a teacher can judge whether a student has had a genuine experience or is just repeating
what he heard or read somewhere. When I related the experience in which I saw the fibers to my teacher, he was not suprized at all but spoke about the
experience itself.
He was also very aware of withholding key elements for this reason.
On the other hand, the rest of the definition of "seeing" which is to know something or some persons thoughts and intent directly with no need to
interpret IS taught in other systems. I have experienced this myself and I think of it as seeing the soul of the person.
Even seeing aura requires interpretation. Not so with seeing the soul directly. There are levels of this also. I have experience it on two levels and in
either case the person does not appear human.
It is no less "seeing" than Don Juan's description in my opinion. Just different.
As far as moving the AP, (if it exists and I really have no reason to disbelieve it) the same thing can be accomplished by moving the consciousness in
meditation and probably is.
Why would a person care or even pay attention to this if they were using the method taught to them and it worked?
And maybe the AP IS the consciousness.
The AP determines the type and level of consciousness. What I meant is that other paths know how to work consciousness, but don't know of the
"power ring", the positions and the effects in consciousness and perception. Very high yogis can move the AP of a disciple to the point of
God-union... temporarily. But they do it by intent, not by moving the AP.
They say, for instance "The kundalini rises and you start to see this and that". The kundalini or personal power moves the AP towards God union,
passing through several levels of astral and causal consciousness, but rarely to another positions. Other traditions work the AP naturally... the naguals work
it deliberately. It's their blessing and curse, because they change to so many positions of the AP that they fail to take the AP higher... except the
kaulas.
Aura seeing, entities of the astral and causal realm is fairly common in many traditions... but the perception of flyers and inorganics is not. Other
traditions tend to conceptualize their seeings and can't really see objectively... they see flyers as demons and inorganics as "underground"
people.
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Bob May wrote:
I have thought about this (the fibers) and can only come to the conclusion that it is a very specific path or AP position that results from a very specific
system and that in other systems of knowledge it is kept secret. As a "key I will not give you." This type of "key" can be withheld from
a student so that a teacher can judge whether a student has had a genuine experience or is just repeating what he heard or read somewhere. When I related the
experience in which I saw the fibers to my teacher, he was not suprized at all but spoke about the experience itself. He was also very aware of withholding
key elements for this reason.
There are no secrets in nagualism. All anyone has to do is "hang out" in the inorganic realm and they will automatically aquire the
leverage to "see energy", "move the assemblage point" and understand "sorcery." The only pitfall in there is the same one that
exists here, and that is egomania. The "work" of sorcerers is done in dreaming, and that is where they keep their "earned assets".
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grandspeculator wrote:
Aura seeing, entities of the astral and causal realm is fairly common in many traditions... but the perception of flyers and inorganics is not. Other
traditions tend to conceptualize their seeings and can't really see objectively... they see flyers as demons and inorganics as "underground"
people.
I agree. What was brilliant about Castaneda is how well he re-packaged truths that were common place and old as dirt, and then sold them as new and
unique. Of course, he was eventuallly out done by Harry Potter.
Freedom is when you are let loose from what defines you, it's losing your job, home, spouse, country, religion, etc. Nagualism allows you to die and then
get freedom afterwards, like death was not bad enough. It's really adding insult to injury if you ask me.
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Freedom is when you are let loose from what defines you, it's losing your job, home, spouse, country, religion, etc. Nagualism allows you to die and then
get freedom afterwards, like death was not bad enough. It's really adding insult to injury if you ask me.
Being beyond job, family, home, spouse, country, religion, politics, philosophy, background, physical body, sex etc... it's the first step
towards freedom. You don't like the idea, but think about it:
Every illusory identification is a mind contraction of the real thing: this little mold give us some satisfactions and some disappointments... pleasure and
pain, always. If you break the mold, not just temporarily pass it, you will feel spontaneous satisfaction... happiness is the true nature of the spirit. We
condition it and spoil it for us.
The most advanced teachings in this matter say "you are not any of those things... you are That".
Recapitulation, for this affair, is valuable. Most of our identifications with the world happen on a raw, emotional level.
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"The AP determines the type and level of consciousness. What I meant is that other paths know how to work consciousness, but don't know of the
"power ring", the positions and the effects in consciousness and perception."
I think they do move it in both type and level but don't necessarily know of it's existence or use it as a "switch" so to speak. The
effects (where they wish to go) would be determined by what they are trying to accomplish.
But you are correct they would not have known as much of the realms (Spheres of operation) that the toltecs were about.
"Very high yogis can move the AP of a disciple to the point of God-union... temporarily. But they do it by intent, not by moving the AP. '
Or just by proximity to the adept or yogi. This I would attribute to harmonics (sympathetic vibrations).
They say, for instance "The kundalini rises and you start to see this and that". The kundalini or personal power moves the AP towards God union,
passing through several levels of astral and causal consciousness, but rarely to another positions. Other traditions work the AP naturally... the naguals work
it deliberately.
My teacher was an engineer before retiring. He had only a bachelor's degree yet his ideas ( 17 patents which were manufactured, not just ideas on paper)
ranged in diverse areas of knowledge. Cryogenics, ( a machine that made dry ice), structural, a fork truck company, and Harmonics, (a foolproof oil valve that
activated and deactivated triggered by sound waves. no moving parts.)
He said he knew nothing of electrical systems and so saved that part of the dry ice machine for last. It took him 15 minutes in meditation to understand and
come up with the entire schematics for the machine which consisted of many processes activating each other.
He credited many of his ideas to visiting the Akashic records which is in the upper Astral Light.
These were "deliberate" movements of consciousness (and therefore movements of the AP) to gain specific knowledge. Yogis goal was higher and higher
planes. Not exploring ANY planes to any great extent on their way to union with God.
It's their blessing and curse, because they change to so many positions of the AP that they fail to take the AP higher... except the kaulas.
That is because they are explorers. They are exploring the planes and subplanes that their system of knowledge opened to them.
I look at it as the difference between rising on the planes and exploring the planes. Verticle vs. lateral movements of consciousness.
I have touched on the Akashic records a few times visually. It appeared to me as scenes rushing by so quickly that I could not comprehend it all.
I asked my teacher how to access it. "Do I speed myself up or slow it down,..or "tune into it?"
He said "Tune in" to it.
I think it has a great deal to do with both interest and cultural or sub-cultural availability.
This excerp from the Mystical Qabala in the chapter entitled The Yoga of the West explains a lot in these terms.
For a system of spiritual development to be applicable in the West it must fulfil certain
well-defined requirements. To begin with, its elementary technique must be such that it is
readily grasped by minds that have in them nothing of the mystic. Secondly, the forces it
brings to bear to stimulate the development of the higher aspects of consciousness must
be sufficiently powerful and concentrated to penetrate the relatively dense vehicles of the
average Westerner, who makes nothing whatever of subtle vibrations. Thirdly, as few
Europeans, following a racial dharma of material development, have either the
opportunity or the inclination to lead the life of a recluse, the forces employed must be
handled in such a way that they can be made available during the brief periods that the
modern man or woman can, at the commencement of the Path, snatch from their daily
avocations to give to the pursuit. They must, that is to say, be handled by a technique
which enables them to be readily concentrated and equally readily dispersed, because it is
not possible to maintain these high psychic tensions while living the hard-driving life of
the citizen of a European city. Experience proves with unfailing regularity that the
methods of psychic development which are effectual and satisfactory for the recluse
produce neurotic conditions and breakdowns in the person who pursues them while
compelled to endure the strain of modern life.
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Hi dreamways,
"There are no secrets in nagualism. All anyone has to do is "hang out" in the inorganic realm and they will automatically aquire the leverage to
"see energy", "move the assemblage point" and understand "sorcery."
Exactly. Castaneda came right out and described the fibers and the luminous egg to the entire world Don Juan said it was time for that and that all that
mattered was personal power. A person that had it would understand his teachings and one that did not would not benefit from the greatest secret ever told.
"Right now you are surrounded by eternity."
I'll give you another. When an angel manifests itself it appears accompanied by a blinding flash of light.
To someone who doesn't believe in angels this is useless knowledge.
To a teacher of the Qabala hearing it from a student this statement confirms that the student has experienced the initiation of the 10th Sephirah Malkuth which
is the vision of the holy guardian angel.
Useful information for both student and teacher.
It is a YOU ARE HERE on the roadmap.
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Your teacher knew quite a bit. As for the deliberate movements, yes, they where deliberate, but not by directly pushing the AP. It was a thing of Intent.
That's what I'am saying.
Naguals knew/know 300 or 600 (don't remember know... according to Don Juan) diferent positions of the AP. First they moved the AP to that position, then
they intended the position again.
You are right, shamans are mostly explorers, but there is a upward movement... but not a concentrated effort in that direction. That's the main failure of
shamans. They could achieve the same realization of a traditional mystic, but they are busy playing with their AP and their controlled folly.
That's why they don't know what freedom is... they were not really looking for it! Not even the new seers. Don Juan knew that but didn't know what
to do so he just keep walking the path as instructed.
It takes twelve years of meditative effort for a natural unfoldment beyond the three bodies. Naguals don't meditate that long. They are big indulgers (Don
Juan words here, again)!
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Hi Grand,
"As for the deliberate movements, yes, they where deliberate, but not by directly pushing the AP. It was a thing of Intent. That's what I'am
saying."
Agreed. They were just using different "switches" to accomplish the same thing (change of their world view) and different destinations for their
consciousness. And so they experienced different worlds.
To each their own.
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grandspeculator wrote:
Being beyond job, family, home, spouse, country, religion, politics, philosophy, background, physical body, sex etc... it's the first step towards
freedom. You don't like the idea, but think about it:
I know that is supposed to be enlightenment, but it goes against civilization. I really don't think that freedom and society are compatible. The
worst thing about nagualism is that it eventually starts forcing freedom on you. You go into it, just wanting a simple peek behind the curtain, and the next
thing you know, you're getting all your preconceptions about reality thrown out the window. It's not fair I tell you!
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I know that is supposed to be enlightenment, but it goes against civilization. I really don't think that freedom and society are compatible. The worst
thing about nagualism is that it eventually starts forcing freedom on you. You go into it, just wanting a simple peek behind the curtain, and the next thing
you know, you're getting all your preconceptions about reality thrown out the window. It's not fair I tell you!
Civilization, at this evolutionary point, is not a creation of the spirit, so yes... freedom is against society. Society may very well be the
field were the flyers "grow" their food.
Nagualism is a path to freedom... if you don't want freedom.... well... what can I say? If you don't want to loose your lower self it will be a growing
issue to a point of conflict and death-end.
Society must be, at most, a field to exercise controlled folly. You can't be a working nagual with a very attached tonal resisting it.
At least for you there is conflict. For the old seers, I presume, it wasn't an issue. They wanted power for morbid things... they got it.
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Bob May wrote:
Yogis goal was higher and higher planes. Not exploring ANY planes to any great extent on their way to union with God.
The way I see it, once a person gets the idea in their head that there are higher planes which lead to union with God, they have only succeeded in biting
down firmly on their tail. God is like the universe, the further you travel in it, the closer you are to where you started.
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grandspeculator wrote:
Naguals don't meditate that long. They are big indulgers (Don Juan words here, again)!
No, those are your words, dipshit. Don Juan never said that "naguals are big indulgers" anywhere. Take your anti-nagualism propaganda back to
sustained action where it belongs.
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I'll bring the quote in no time. I'am not anti-nagual... I'am ultra-nagual... if you understand what it means.
From The Art of Dreaming: The Tenant
Don Juan: "I mean the negative results of those gifts. The woman in the church knows only of
indulging. There is no frugality, no temperance in that woman. For instance, she taught the nagual Julian how to arrange his assemblage point to be, just like
her, a woman. Teaching this to my benefactor, who was an incurable voluptuary, was like giving booze to a drunkard."
Carlos Castaneda: "But isn't it up to each one of us to be responsible for what we do?"
Don Juan: "Yes, indeed. However, some of us have more difficulty than others in being responsible. To
augment that difficulty deliberately, as that woman does, is to put too much unnecessary pressure on us."
Carlos Castaneda: "How do you know the woman in the church does this deliberately?"
Don Juan: "She has done it to every one of the naguals of my line. If we look at ourselves fairly and
squarely, we have to admit that the death defier has made us, with his gifts, into a line of
very indulging, dependent sorcerers."
I don't spect a "Sorry Speculator", but please... don't say that I'am something that
I'am not. I want freedom, above all.
How can you be a dreamer/sorceror and a fanatic at the same time? What a wonder!
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If a person that wanted to seek power via I.B. help the problem would be is knowing what type of I.B. to channel as to putting your trust and your fate in its
direction to have the exchange of energy that you would want to seek and be married to the rest of your life like almost all of our ancestors have.
I have written about "Ba" sites when it comes to archaeological "power spots" that were a place were our ancestors had a place that they
used to assemble or gather objects(power objects) that held the I.B.'s that helped them with the afterworld or otherworld but also I.B.'s that they
used to be associated with there normal living to help members of akin tribal culture with there quest in this world that happened countless thousands of years
ago.
If one was to seek power from such I.B.'s I would go to places that carry the heritage or interest of your history or origin because if you go on some
foreign Island and find something trying to cater to you may find out why that is why it's isolated to a island.LOL, and find out the hard way why its
only found there.
I feel fortunate enough to not be dependent on them but learned from the misfortune of my childhood friend that used them and tried to subdue me with them and
I think because of the onslaught of the I.B. realm made me instinctively move my assemblage point to a position that would not have been moved if it had not
been for that.
My opinion is this I rather have had the choice to to move my A.P. at my discretion then have it be manipulated by the "shadow-flier", via I.B. or
anything.
I would not go down without a fight and I would use any means necessary to not be consumed by the F.I. because that would be the total defeat to anyone by not
doing anything at all but engaging in mental masturbation activity to just be scared to do anything about it.
If you don't do anything about it then you should just shut the **** and watch TV and be told what to think and not preach to others on how to act
because this is one thing that pisses me off is when you have members telling others how to act when they are pathetic pieces of F.I. excrement on how to be a
warrior.
If people want to use F.E. or friendly I.B. then so be it as long as its intentional.
To each its own, for it is your fate.
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Bob May wrote:
"It is a trap. The entire world of sorcery is."
"Well, that's what I would expect any judeo-christian facist to say."
Again, I'm taking this from Don Juan. I don't think he was either Judeo-Christian or facist. His goal for Carlos was for him to become a "man of
knowledge." And not become trapped by either the world of normal men or the world of sorcerers. Both were equally illusion.
How are you "taking this" from Don Juan? Please provide the quote in which Don Juan says "sorcery is a trap". He never said that.
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grandspeculator wrote:
"Naguals don't meditate that long. They are big indulgers (Don Juan words here, again)!"
Don Juan: "She has done it to every one of the naguals of my line. If we look at ourselves fairly and squarely, we have to admit that the death defier has made us, with his gifts, into a line of very indulging,
dependent sorcerers."
Just because the naguals of don juan's lineage were modified to become indulgent, that doesn't automatically make all naguals indulgent. If
naguals were naturally indulgent, then why did the death defier have to make them that way? Do you see now? Bad mouthing all naguals just because some went
off the road is like blaming all muslims for what extremist muslims do. It is called "guilt by association."
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Well Dreamways... I see very few naguals better than the naguals of that lineage. If they were indulgent, what could I say about the rest of them?
It's not the Eagle's fault, nor the fault of the nagual path... it's the fault of the particular naguals. Nagualism is GOOD in my book. Most naguals don't impress me much, but that's another history.
You are passionate about nagualism, but you really should not get mad if someone trash it... the flyers are relentless.
What is utterly ridiculous is that you accuse me of being anti-nagual... that's a joke! I'll repeat it... I'am ULTRA-NAGUAL... do you get it?
Ademdum:
The Death Defier didn't "modify" them... He/She invite them to become more indulgent and they agreed to it. They could say no, but except for
Carlos no nagual of that line ever said "NO" to a gift from the Death Defier. And even in his "no" he was very indulgent.
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