Perspective

[ARNWAY]

I think I will give Dreamways a Kudos right now.




He deserves one for being a warrior that walks the walk.

[dreamways]

ARNWAY wrote:

I think I will give Dreamways a Kudos right now.


He deserves one for being a warrior that walks the walk.

I also deserve one for walking that little old lady across the street, and for always being prepared.

[ARNWAY]

I can't figure out how to give a kudos to anyone.




I feel really stupid because I spent an hour trying to send one.

[dreamways]

ARNWAY wrote:

I can't figure out how to give a kudos to anyone.




I feel really stupid because I spent an hour trying to send one.


You just click on the button that says kudos on their profile. You can only do it once per person though.

[dreamways]

From: The Fire
From Within, 1984




He said over and over again that the manipulation of intent begins with a command given to oneself; the command is then repeated until
it becomes the Eagle's command, and then the assemblage point shifts, accordingly, the moment warriors reach inner silence.


The fact that
such a maneuver is possible, he said, is something of the most singular importance to seers, old and new alike, but for reasons diametrically opposed.
Knowing about it allowed the old seers to move their assemblage point to inconceivable dreaming positions in the incommensurable unknown; for the new seers
it means refusing to be food, it means escaping the Eagle by moving their assemblage points to a particular dreaming position called
total freedom.


He explained that
the old seers discovered that it is possible to move the assemblage point to the limit of the known and keep it fixed there in a state
of prime heightened awareness. From that position, they saw the feasibility of slowly shifting their assemblage points permanently to other positions
beyond that limit..a stupendous feat fraught with daring but lacking sobriety, for they could never retract the movement of their
assemblage points, or perhaps they never wanted to.


Don Juan said
that adventurous men, faced with the choice of dying in the world of ordinary affairs or dying in unknown worlds, will unavoidably choose the latter, and
that the new seers, realizing that their predecessors had chosen merely to change the locale of their death, came to understand the
futility of it all; the futility of struggling to control their fellow men, the futility of assembling other worlds, and, above all, the futility of
self-importance.


One of the most
fortunate decisions that the new seers made, he said, was never to allow their assemblage points to move permanently to any position
other than heightened awareness. From that position, they actually resolved their dilemma of futility and found out that the solution is not simply to
choose an alternate world in which to die, but to choose total consciousness, total freedom.


Don Juan
commented that by choosing total freedom, the new seers unwittingly continued in the tradition of their predecessors and became the
quintessence of the death defiers.


He explained that
the new seers discovered that if the assemblage point is made to shift constantly to the confines of the unknown, but is made to return
to a position at the limit of the known, then when it is suddenly released it moves like lightning across the entire cocoon of man, aligning all the
emanations inside the cocoon at once.


"The new
seers burn with the force of alignment," don Juan went on, "with the force of will, which they have turned into the force of intent through a life
of impeccability. Intent is the alignment of all the amber emanations of awareness, so it is correct to say that total freedom means
total awareness."


"Is that
what all of you are going to do, don Juan?" I asked.


"We most
certainly will, if we have sufficient energy," he replied. "Freedom is the Eagle's gift to man. Unfortunately, very few men understand that all
we need, in order to accept such a magnificent gift, is to have sufficient energy.


"If that's all we need, then, by all means, we must become misers of energy."


After that, don
Juan made us enter into a state of normal awareness. At dusk, Pablito, Nestor, and I jumped into the abyss. And don Juan and the
nagual's party burned with the fire from within. They entered into total awareness, for they had sufficient energy to accept the mind-boggling
gift of freedom.


Well, there's alot here to look at so I'm just going to comment
on it a bit at a time.





He said over and over again that the manipulation of intent begins with a command given to
oneself; the command is then repeated until it becomes the Eagle's command, and then the assemblage point shifts,
accordingly, the moment warriors reach inner silence.
The way I would interpret this is first of all as "re-training" the
habits of the mind and body with your higher consciousness. The part of the mind that keeps talking to itself is actually the body, the autonomic mind/brain.
Your default mind/body physical existence is controlled by the "Eagle", which means it is something primitive, not the higher self or higher reason,
and certainly not the western version of God. The Eagle can be re-trained, meaning that your lower autonomic self can be retrained, Nature can be re-trained.
The Eagle's gift is Nature's gift. The energy of the Eagle is synonymous with the energy of the Brow Chakra, the chakra BELOW the
Crown.

[grandspeculator]

What I try to say, most of the time, is that the total freedom of naguals can be achieved without burning with fire from within and leaving the bodily form behind.




Yogis do it, but it takes a lot of time and inner and outer purification to get to that position of the AP and stay on
it.




Naguals, mostly, don't take the trouble. Shamans from other traditions do.




But hey... to learn about this things you have to dare to learn other paths. And follow them it's a whole different history.

[dreamways]

grandspeculator wrote:

What I try to say, most of the time, is that the total freedom of naguals can be achieved without burning with fire from within and leaving the bodily form behind. Yogis
do it, but it takes a lot of time and inner and outer
purification to get to that position of the AP and stay on it. Naguals, mostly, don't take the trouble. Shamans from other traditions
do. But hey... to learn about this things you have to dare to learn
other paths. And follow them it's a whole different history.

Who cares what some con-artist 'yogi' claims to have done. There are so many of those egomaniac parasites floating around, it would take
you a lifetime just to sort through them all.

[grandspeculator]

There are a lot of egomaniacs on the yogic arena... it's the same thing in shamanism, tantra, Tibetan Buddhism, Qaballah, Sufism, Taoism, etc...ad
infinitum, ad nauseam.




It's not the fault of the path if very few are able to walk it all the way.




Nagualism is like that too (yet another thing that I say again and again)... you'll know it if you dare to see it with unbiased eyes.

[dreamways]

grandspeculator wrote:

There are a lot of egomaniacs on the yogic arena... it's the same thing in shamanism, tantra, Tibetan Buddhism, Qaballah, Sufism, Taoism, etc...ad
infinitum, ad nauseam.




It's not the fault of the path if very few are able to walk it all the way.




Nagualism is like that too (yet another thing that I say again and again)... you'll know it if you dare to see it with unbiased eyes.







Yep, nagualism is what it is. It's no better or worse than any other path. It is a path that picks certain people, and they have to take it to
the end, kicking and screaming sometimes.

[Bob May]

"The energy of the Eagle is synonymous with the energy of the Brow Chakra, the chakra BELOW the Crown."




Why do they stop there do you think? Yogi's meditate on the "Thousand Petaled Lotus", the connection to the energy that comes from ABOVE the
crown chakra.


Qabalists in meditations place their consciousness on the same place and call it "The Point." Both meditations, one of Eastern and one of Western
Traditions result in the same experience. The awakening of the Kundalini or "Fire From Within."






"Who cares what some con-artist 'yogi' claims to have done. There are so many of those egomaniac parasites floating around, it would take you a
lifetime just to sort through them all."




"Seers come in all sizes and shapes"


"Do you mean to say that there are different kinds of seers?"


"No. I mean that there are scores of imbeciles who become seers. Seers are human beings full of foibles, or rather, human beings full of foibles are
capable of being seers. Just as in the case of miserable people who become superb scientists.


"The characteristic of miserable seers is that they are willing to forget the wonder of the world. They become overwhelmed by the fact that they can see
and believe that it's their genious that counts. A seer must be a paragon in order to override the nearly invincible laxness of our human condition.


More important than seeing is what seers do with what they see."


"What do you mean by that, don Juan?"


"Look at what seers have done to us. We are stuck with their vision of an Eagle that rules us and devours us at the moment of our death."


He said that there is a definite laxness in that version, and that personally he did not appreciate the idea of something devouring us. For him, it would be
more accurate to say that there is a force that attracts our consciousness, much as a magnet attracts iron shavings. At the moment of dying, all of our being
disintegrates under the attraction of that immense force.


That such an event was interpreted as the Eagle devouring us he found grotesque, because it turns an indescribable act into something as mundane as eating.

[grandspeculator]

Nice quote... didn't remember it.




Of course you are right, as always. he

[Bob May]

Hi Guys,




This discussion has become heated at times. At least I think it has. It is hard to be sure because I can't see anyone's faces. Such is the internet.


But I have learned something very important to me because of questions raised in my mind as a result of these discussions.


Dreamway's comment about the eagle being below the crown kind of confirms what I was looking into.




I like to look at don Juan's explaination of reality and see how it fits with the Qabala's description being that I have experienced things using both
systems of knowledge. This way I can get a better understanding of what is going on. The more details that diverse systems agee upon, the more I can believe
the details. "In the multitude of councilors there is wisdom.", as the Bible says. This is especially true in my estimation when these systems of
knowledge seem to have sprung from such diverse geographical areas of the world with no apparent contact with one another.




I had always likened the Eagle with the first Sephira of the Tree of Life. Where all awareness comes from. Pure consciousness, Awareness, I AM.


I believe now that the Eagle is not that high up the Tree.


Why? Because according to don Juan it is not the primal source of energy.


That distinction is reserved for the "Tyrant." It is very interesting to me that they used that name. It is a pure Old Testament concept or
prespective of God. This perspective is one that is characterised by the idea that God is a destroyer that cannot be approached.


"No one can see God and live." No wonder they stopped short.


The Tyrant is describe by don Juan as being:




1. "The Primal source of Energy."


2. "The Souce of everything."


3. "The one and only ruler in the Universe."




These are all attributes of the Crown, Kether, the first Emanation. Unknowable. To become one with this Sephirah is to unmanifest.


"Enoch walked with God and was not for God took him."


Yet in the New Testament there are those who unmanifested and returned. Jesus for one and Phillip for another.




But then that is New Testament/Covenant and different rules apply.




Anyway, thanks guys for this discussion. It fills in some missing pieces of the puzzle.

[grandspeculator]

The Eagle is really not that high!! It's actually above the astral/dream realm. That's why I, and others, say that the so-called freedom of the naguals
is a third attention-beyond-the-eagle!!




Nice to see someone that got the message. LOL

[ARNWAY]

Grand S wrote------------The Eagle is really not that high!! It's actually above the astral/dream realm. That's why I, and others, say that the
so-called freedom of the naguals is a third attention-beyond-the-eagle!!




Nice to see someone that got the message. LOL -------------------------------




Can you elaborate a little or great deal on this statement.

[grandspeculator]

Certainly Arnway:




According to other traditions, Vedanta for instance, there are at the very least four states with many perceptual degrees in between:




Waking, dreaming, dreamless and beyond the three states (Turiya)




Each state is related to a particular attention and subtle body.




Wake = Physical Body


Dream = Subtle Astral and Vital Body


Dreamless = Subtle Causal or Mental Body




The so-called forth state is cosmic consciousness, nirvana, nirvikalpa samadhi, moksha, etc... every tradition calls it differently. That is, in many other
traditions, the ultimate state of perceptual freedom.




When naguals burn with the fire from within and pass the eagle they don't become one with infinity... they achieve an state where they "see"
infinity from the causal body.




There is much more to say, but that's enough for now.

[Bob May]

"According to other traditions, Vedanta for instance, there are at the very least four states with many perceptual degrees in between:


Waking, dreaming, dreamless and beyond the three states (Turiya)


Each state is related to a particular attention and subtle body."




In the Qabala there is the G'uph, (physical), Nephesh (animal soul), Ruach (intellect), Neshamah (intuition), Chiayah (life force), Yechidah (Higher self).




This is the "Coats of skins" (plural, skins) that are given to mankind when leaving the "Garden" in Genesis. Which skin we use is dictated
by which plane we are functioning upon.




"...at the very least four states with many perceptual degrees in between:.."




I believe there are demacation points, but I have the feeling that it is all more of a continuum. Kind of like a rainbow. No hard and fast lines, but at some
points we all agree that red has turned to orange and green has turned to blue.




I know from experience that there is a place where demons cannot follow.

[dreamways]

Bob May wrote:

"The energy of the Eagle is synonymous with the energy of the Brow Chakra, the chakra BELOW the Crown."




Why do they stop there do you think?
Well, since we all know that the point of the Eagle is to get past it, that they don't "stop" there, I'll just chock that up
to more of the same anti-nagualist disinformation you've been posting.

[dreamways]

grandspeculator wrote:



The Eagle is really not that high!! It's actually above the astral/dream realm. That's why I, and others, say that the so-called freedom of the
naguals is a third attention-beyond-the-eagle!! Nice to see someone that got the message. LOL


The whole point is to get past the Eagle, when did that become a secret? Have you even read any of the books?

[dreamways]

grandspeculator
wrote:

According to other traditions, Vedanta for instance, there are at the very least four states with many perceptual degrees in between: Waking, dreaming,
dreamless and beyond the three states (Turiya) Each state is related to a particular attention and subtle body.


Wake = Physical Body


Dream = Subtle Astral and Vital Body


Dreamless = Subtle Causal or Mental Body


The so-called forth state is cosmic consciousness, nirvana, nirvikalpa samadhi, moksha, etc... every tradition calls it differently. That is, in many other
traditions, the ultimate state of perceptual freedom. When naguals burn with the fire from within and pass the eagle they don't become one with
infinity... they achieve an state where they "see" infinity from the causal body.



This sort of hierarchy is false. The flow of consciousness evolves in a circular fashion, just like the cycles found in Nature. The fallacy of a static
hierarchy is an unnatural concoction, created to satisfy egomaniacs. This is where the "gurus" sit around telling each other, "no, my
consciousness is higher!" "My satguru realized god more perfectly than yours!"

[grandspeculator]

The inorganics are right about you Dreamways... I didn't want to believe it, but aparently they don't lie... they just can't do it.




I'll just stop writing about this touchy subjects. It never is well received... so, why keep doing it?




I have nothing to prove. If you think so very little of the conclusions and understandings of other seers without knowing what they are saying in their own
terms, what can I possibly say? There is no reasoning with you. You have a reactive need to spit on the knowledge of non-naguals.




I won't feed it anymore.

[Guest]

Because IB's cannot lie they are easy target to certain human types...so they just stay away from those for their own safety...

[dreamways]

grandspeculator wrote:

The inorganics are right about you Dreamways... I didn't want to believe it, but aparently they don't lie... they just can't do it.


Ya, it's about a foot long, they call it "the eagle's gift."




grandspeculator wrote:

I won't feed it anymore.
You should think about just posting your anti-nagualism bullshit somewhere else, like maybe on a yogi boasting forum where you belong.

[grandspeculator]

Perhaps you are right Dreamways... perhaps you are right.




What an interesting thought!




Thanks for the tip.




PS: I don't need to belong anywhere. I'am not defined by my social context.

[Bob May]

Bob May wrote:

"The energy of the Eagle is synonymous with the energy of the Brow Chakra, the chakra BELOW the Crown."




Why do they stop there do you think?
Well, since we all know that the point of the Eagle is to get past it, that they don't "stop" there, I'll just chock that up
to more of the same anti-nagualist disinformation you've been posting.




You still haven't told me what the Tyrant is. If it is the source of all energy as don Juan said it is and the source of everything and a "Petty
Tyrant" is one capable of killing the body. Then what is a Tyrant capable of? And where did the Eagle come from if the Tyrant is the Source of everything?
And where did the Eagle get his energy from if the source of all energy Primal (First) energy is from the Tyrant?




"I'll just chock that up to more of the same anti-nagualist disinformation you've been posting."




This is not anti-Nagual, this is speculation and building upon the foundation of Nagualism.




That is our statement of pupose on this forum It's what we about;


"Here we are dedicated to advancing the teachings of nagualism. To explore the knowledge brought out by Carlos Castaneda and
""""to advance upon its foundation.""" ...and """above all""", to make each person aware of
their totality and inherent human potential."




To stop searching for answers is Anti-Nagualism in my opinion. But you may read that differently than I do.


Be my guest.


I have found that when I think I have already arrived at something, I stop moving. Better to think of yourself as nowhere near your goal and be wrong than
thinking of yourself as having "made it" and become stagnant.

[dreamways]

Bob May wrote:

"Here we are dedicated to advancing the teachings of nagualism."

When practically everyone of your posts is aimed at disempowering nagualism, and/or promoting kabbalist teachings instead, it is pretty obvious that you
are an anti-nagualist. And now you try to pass this off as "advancing the teachings of nagualism". What a load of ****. You post here to promote
your agenda, which is not nagualism, it's as simple as that.