Posts: 0
Threads: 0
Joined: Feb 2019
Reading all this put forth, it seems to me a basic understanding is now underscored here...that the key is getting past the eagle, whether one does it through the ways of an old seer, new seer or modern seer.
Why old seers? Well, given its a retrospective view from which we apprehend them and their achievements, it can be utilized from the advantage of modern awareness. Maybe thats simply the definition of modern seer then? To me the lines of distinction are blurred when you realize how much new and modern seers learned from old seers.
I like examples so will use one...modern music...hip hop and rock, has its roots in rhythm and blues. Modern musicians can utilize the methods of 50 plus years ago musicians..hard core R&B styles, and incorporate them into a new music, still linked with the old style, yet innovative and based on present moment relevance. I Lay Down by Zucchero/John Lee Hooker http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOxRXMYHMy8
Posts: 0
Threads: 0
Joined: Feb 2019
Lex writes: "So LW if you choose this time or moment to leave this planet with a warrior party that is certainly an option but let everyone understand old seers even have been doing just that for a very long time..."
Old Seers have been doing that for a very long time...meaning they have been leaving the planet in warrior parties....not really trying to call you on it but pointing out what you wrote and how that it applies. The eagle's gift is just that, a chance to escape death. The old seers found that its not only possible but that a "group" can do it together. This is important information.
End of the worlds dreams...Ninth..dreams where the earth was dying and all who lived on it.
Posts: 124
Threads: 13
Joined: Feb 2019
Lex writes: "So LW if you choose this time or moment to leave this planet with a warrior party that is certainly an option but let everyone understand old seers even have been doing just that for a very long time..." LW
LW please never feel you have to apologize for calling me on anything. I am after clarity and this helps Now I see why you thought what you did about what I said. Sloppy on my part! I just wanted to point out that leaving this planet for life in the 2nd attention in something old seers have been doing for long time. The fact that new seers form warrior parties to do this might indeed distinguish them from the old ones, as in the technique used to actually leave together. So is there anything other than technique and a warrior party to distinguish them in regard to how they leave and their disposition in the 2nd attention?
Posts: 124
Threads: 13
Joined: Feb 2019
Reading all this put forth, it seems to me a basic understanding is now underscored here...that the key is getting past the eagle, whether one does it through the ways of an old seer, new seer or modern seer. Nu Lang
When I first started this thread and then had things fall into place with Nemo’s help, it produced a razor sharp apprehension of what I was trying to clarify here. Now two months and many responses later I am experiencing a lull and even dullness. The initial insight itself becoming clouded and feeling like it was just slipping into irrelevancy. So I went back and reread the very first post. For the sake of this dialogue I recommend others reread it too. But for now I think Post #8 addresses where Nu Lang wants to go with this.
Post #8
Now if you have followed this so far what DJ discovered is the totality of himself. Now because we don’t have a clear understanding of what this actually is and means it is not quite apparent why this is such a big deal for DJ. and why it necessitated that he deviate from the tradition of his predecessors. This is different than anything else that is talked about in the sorcerer’s tradition of that lineage. Now please understand from the literature we know that Naguals and their parties have been leaving the everyday world of 1st attention, but that is not what DJ is talking about. Remember according to DJ, his predecessors never achieved their totality! Seers both old and new have been leaving this planet for alternate realities for a very long time. It is the aim of some in this forum that at the point of death or before, they wish to transfer their awareness to their energy body, dart past the Eagle and go from there. This is pure second attention stuff and certainly not third attention.
“He said that the 2nd attention is also called the left side awareness; and it is the vastest field that one can imagine, so vast in fact that it seems limitless. I wouldn’t stray into it for anything in this world. It is a quagmire so complex and bizarre that sober seers go into it only under the strictest conditions” DJ FFW
Achieving this Totality that DJ speaks of is third attention and it is not something that lies “beyond” 2nd attention out there in the many varied layers, no, it is right here right now and it lies between 1st and 2nd attention. It is a supreme accomplishment to achieve this now without becoming disembodied awareness. The cosmic vagina lies between the legs of 1st and 2nd attention lol.
“The mastery of awareness must develop to its natural end, which is ....to extend the glow of awareness beyond the bounds of the luminous cocoon in one single stroke” DJ FFW
“We can better explain this by saying that the task of the teacher is to wipe clean one half of the bubble and reorder everything on the other half. The benefactor’s task then is to open the bubble on the side that has been cleaned. ONCE THE SEAL HAS BEEN BROKEN THE WARRIOR IS NEVER THE SAME. HE HAS THEN COMMAND OF HIS TOTALITY.
Half of the is the ultimate center of reason , the tonal. The other half is the ultimate center of will, the nagual. That is the order that should prevail; any other arrangement is nonsensical and petty, because it goes against our nature; it robs us of our magical heritage and reduces us to nothing.” DJ TOPNow as far as I can see here, this is the difference, this cleaning and re-ordering the elements of the bubble of perception in preparation for breaking the seal, thus extending the glow of awareness beyond the bounds of the luminous cocoon and gaining Totality.
Something that is commonly reported when this happens, is that people cannot tell if they are in the body or out of the body. Until the seal is broken seers both old and new have encounters with the nagual in the left side awareness and shift between 1st and 2nd attention and back or never back. When the seal is broken human form is dropped, as it was very body (form) orientated, and in DJ’s words the wings of perception unfold and embrace simultaneously the tonal and the nagual, without all the back and forth.
Now what one ultimately does with the command of their Totality while they live out their lives here is another issue. And it matters not whether one is successful or not with the tasks they wait upon.
“Here is where I varied from the tradition. After a lifelong struggle I know that what matters is not to learn a new description (sorcery) but to arrive at the totality of oneself.” DJ TOP
So it is and it isn't about darting past the Eagle, Nu Lang, let me explain. If we think that its about forming a warrior party to leave the planet and sneak past the Eagle (product of the view of sorcery), then that is not what DJ advocates. His predecessors had been doing just that and according to DJ they missed what he achieved.
But if sneaking past the Eagle is equated to cracking the bubble of perception here and now then it relates more to a simultaneous embrace of 1st and 2nd attention and the emergence of 3rd attention as as an active, dynamic, intensity that expresses this "unfolding of the wings of perception" without getting overwhelmed/engulfed by either 1st or 2nd attention.
Posts: 0
Threads: 0
Joined: Feb 2019
The subject of liminality or threshold is new. I had to look it up. Threshold.
So it is not new in reality to the teachings of Don Juan or Jesus or the Qabalah.
Don Juan has covered this concept over and over again since the start. He just kept renaming it trying to get Carlos to understand.
This concept of neither this or that as opposed to something higher or deeper is I think what Lex is gatting at and is the actual doorway to what we seek.
Don Juan used terms like first and second an third attention.
The island of the tonal, and the sea of nagual.
Bubbles of perception. Then ordering the bubble and opening it.
Normal man, sorcerer and man of knowledge.
Old seers, new seers and now we have added modern seers as an alternative viewpoint.
So, now we can add liminality to the list of terminology that all speaks to the same set of ideas we have been looking at from the start.
We, as human beings need repetition in order to pay attention sometimes. That repetition has gotten us to filter everything through what we have already experienced or through every philosophy we have thought.
When asked by a rich man what he needed to do to enter the kingdom of heaven Jesus told him to keep the commandments love mother father etc., etc.
When the man said he did all of that already Jesus told him to sell everything he had and follow him.
We are the rich men. What is it (besides the physical wealth) that we must get rid of?
Jesus said narrow the gate and steep the way and few there be that find it. Why is this Gate so hard to find?
Don Juan said the difference between a normal man and a sorcerer was what made a man of knowledge. To sneak between the two descriptions.
Both Don Juan and the Celts thought the twilight was holy or special. Neither this nor that,..the time between times.
In the Qabalah the Sephirah named Daath (Knowledge) is usually not shown on the tree and sits astride the abyss separating two distinct orders of being. That which is above and that which is below.
All of the above point to something right in front of our faces that we do not recognize because we have this innate tendency to move from one viewpoint to another viewpoint. One description or another. To give up the descriptions is to see that cubic centimeter of chance. The narrow gate.
The end times, in my opinion has been going on for 2000 years. We just do not see it.
I go on a bible forum on which there are two basic philosophies about the end of the world. Those who look to world events and a future event of great magnitude. Those who beleve all of the end time prophecies were fulfilled, beginning at the crucifixion and ending in 70 AD.
I, on the other hand believe that all of these events will be individually fulfilled within the experiences and spiritual awakenings of individuals. One at a time.
It is so interesting to me that the two main groups know each other's arguments so well and can argue their own viewpoints against them.
But when I show them a third way of looking at it, it does not even compute. These are people who are scholars and way more knowledgeable about the bible and writings about the bible throughout the centuries.
But they cannot even consider what I am saying because they do not understand it.
I have had a few expeiences. There is this principle of Threshold that cannot be understood until experienced. There are many thresholds, veils, lattice, doorways etc., To have had one experience, any experience of passing from one way of percieving this world to another is the key.
To know how unable you were to know what it was that was coming and then to experience it is a valuable tool.
To learn to expect without knowing what it is you are expecting.
"It has not entered into the hearts and minds of man what God has in store for his children."
My teacher used to say, "If you have an experience one time it is just an experience. If you have an experience twice you have mastered it."
I have not experienced what he was refering to in this regard. Each time I have had a spiritual experience it has been completely different than anything that I have ever experienced before.
But I have experienced this principle of threshold many times.
It is a doorway that is not this nor that.
Because we insist in trying to make it this or that we do not experience it.
Just some thoughts.
Posts: 0
Threads: 0
Joined: Feb 2019
To address the above post: Rearranging the bubble as described and then bursting it, is a good physical description of what is happening when the shift is made to leave the body with full awareness. The tonal has been addressed, the nagual side is ready. Total toltality.
Achieving the third attention while alive is indeed the height of the sorcerer's power. Maintaining it at will requires much energy and cannot be achieved for very long periods before losing consciousness.
My first and foremost reason into reading the works of Castaneda was to seek freedom from death, thus when the Eagle's Gift came out, I was finally satisfied with an answer. The old seers led the way but the new seers under the lineage of the Tenant decided that maybe there was worse fates out there then death. So backing off, some began to ponder what they can achieve before crossing. Thus we have the warrior's way.
Posts: 124
Threads: 13
Joined: Feb 2019
It is very liberating to experience all things as the same sameness. It
appears that thought alone creates the idea of separateness of objects.
Since these are just "ideas" about "objects" they can just as easily be
dropped. Then what is the perceiver left with?
Freedom from being bound to the multitude of "things" that bind by thought of "things" alone.
So to act in a world of things, knowing first hand the experience of the
emptiness of said things is the most crucial of all perceptions.
"Don Juan went on explaining that the moment one crosses a peculiar
threshold in infinity, either deliberately or, as in my case,
unwittingly, everything that happens to one from then on is no longer
exclusively in one's own domain, but enters into the realm of infinity."
ASOI
The problem with words is not the words...but the intended "beingness"
of things. So infinity "becomes" a "thing" by the intended thought of it
so and one has a very difficult time getting beyond this. Dependent
origination is very liberating in this regard.
So what was "one's own domain" DJ refers to? An intended "beingness".
And what is "entering into the realm of infinity"? Not intending
beingness. Seeing that beingness is merely an intention. Nu Lang
I pulled this from emptiness and objects thread. Lex 
Posts: 0
Threads: 0
Joined: Feb 2019
Nice Lex, this thread I believe has been very beneficial for reviewing what indeed sorcerer's are in this new age. I am wondering how many read and want to post responses but haven't yet? May I ask if you Lex consider yourself a sorcerer with an explanation?
Posts: 124
Threads: 13
Joined: Feb 2019
Stalking Wolf,
Although I read the Sorcerer’s Explanation years ago, I can honestly say it was not until the presentation of it in this thread that I saw the beauty of it and what DJ was up to with CC. This explanation is elusive and if one is not adequately prepared its benefit will just escape us. For me opening myself to this explanation represents a closure of sorts. Having seen what DJ was up to with CC and understanding his use of these didactic devices the allure of the 2nd attention can find no foothold within me now. I feel like I have made it through the minefield presented in CC’s works.
So do I consider myself a sorcerer with an explanation (chuckle, that’s good) no I do not. The sorcerer’s explanation given by DJ suffices.
Stalking Wolf would you care to comment on your apprehension of this thread, how did this aid your seeing. For me this was one of those times where I was learning as I wrote.
Posts: 0
Threads: 0
Joined: Feb 2019
( written from the 'I' which is Nagual, playing a consciously multidimensional role, on the tonal)
I have long pondered over what i can add to this thread. compelled to write but translating the abstract knowing to words, is a difficult process for my being.
After my trip round the UK and experiencing the interactions on my journey as well as days of my own silence, i can eventually put some words, to the screen.
The question of DJ's advocation of direction, is what triggered me (thanks lex) i can only write from my own knowing and my own experience. i also am a woman, which i feel, constitutes a different perspective and role in these times, to what has currently been discussed.
so DJ and his direction.....
i have been in communication with the collective of Nagual beings, individually and as a 'circle' for years. i was told before they started coming to me individually, that the Nagual teacher i was given as a child (age 7) was a personification of the collective, at the point of origin.(ie. i didnt recognise the name as part of any lineage, and was advised not to read the CC books, but to trust my connection with Spirit, so i did not limit myself from all possible choices)
Recently however, the details are sharper and the interactions clearer.
At first, I was shown a 'renegotiation' of the Nagual collective, whereas the individual flavours of the Naguals were harnessed to a collective goal..i see the analouge of a circle, of shades of the grayscale.this was shown to me as each Nagual teachers energies would be available, but would have to be consciously chosen by the apprentice, rather than the lessons be 'enforced'.this means that those entering Nagualism will be taught by the collective from now on, although details for individuals may still be shown through individual frequency associations to say particular tendancies and skills.
DJ as the main personification, of previous association, would be the spokesperson for this movement, therefore harnessing the most amount of collective attention, to what was happening.
the main suggestion, is that the Nagual Consciousness has a larger part to play in the humanity shifting of consciousness, than the odd warrior party or individual awakening.
During the times ahead, each frequency of consciousness wants to survive the mass shift. It wishes to remain a choice beyond the octave jump. It wishes to survive intact..hence all individuals called to host any connection to 'beyond' whether in 2nd attention or in 3rd attention are being asked to form together, so that the connections remain live and are strengthened by useage.
Also we are being asked to use our knowledge here on the tonal.live in the now.so that we anchor these states of consciousness into the tonal masses, so that they too, can align with this part of themselves, to assist in dropping the constructs of the old humanity paradigm.
The nothing/nagual/void..is the 'freedom of choice' space, where each individual can in all acounts clear and drop the old and embrace the new, with as little disruption as possible. After all the concepts and constructs, are going to have to be dropped or rechosen at some point. This is the ideal solution. To acknowledge this existance of choice of beyond...the 'no rules' space where one can recap, release and reaffirm in any moment.
To my knowing the 'point of origin', of which i have spoken about before on this forum, is manifesting on the tonal.it is experienced like simultaneous multidimensional consciousness. In this space of having access to everything in the now..the silence is imperative to integrate as a continous accessible backdrop, as any intention, will instantly manifest....and this includes, leaving this planet.
If calculations are to be believed, this will become possible to access for the awakened masses from the 20th july throughout august 2011, when the 'clutch goes in' (see secrets of mayan calender vids posted in tone)
whenever it happens for the individual,group, masses, im sure its not all going to happen at once...i believe i have already sat in that 'darkness' that ninth octave spoke about at the end of last year (it lasted about 5 weeks). i have reason to believe this is so because at this time the future was ripped up and, the way i have to live now, is different, to what i was able to do before...the energy shifted from creating a focus point, of finished creation and aligning my path to it...to a 'now' moment where the energy and creation flows towards me....receiving.(magnetic).instead of actively persuing (electric).
This i believe was the individual experience of the 'polar shift' or, the return of the 'divine feminine'energies... whatever label you wish to call it.
My recent trip round the UK, assisted the integration of any past connections what wish to move forward alongside me..it was interesting what 'past' it was neccessary to drop, and who showed up for interaction and to play 'catch up'.Those people, once in my 'past', join me, in the more integrated 'now' moment.
DJ and CC, both guided me to NLW and a couple of other Nagual beings on the planet after this occured. i have been connected to them as a group consciousness since that time.
It was all about the evolution of Nagualism...
So now, to the old seers /new seers debate...
there is not a debate from my seeing. the point of origin is beyond the lineages forming...beyond any form of seperation at all..unity within freedom, of all conscious choice
This leads to all choices, on the way to do things, open. Many people will choose many different ways, for the simple fact is that all choices wish to remain existant, after the mass shift.It makes no sense to me, why one way would be deemed any better, than any other...its how you are aligned to participate, and that you are participating.
It is what it is.
its my seeing that the shifting of the AP for humanity and a 'warriors party', or individual intent, are all combined. however the group consciousness is pulling your being to participate..then participate.
Individuals/groups moving across to their desired destinations, opens the way,for the conscious choice of humanities freedoms, as a whole, to become activated. I feel drawn to all of it, the walking of conscious multidimensional living here in the now,the walking out consciously,(personal destiny intention) to the shifting of the AP of humanity (job here), which in my knowing, means i can do all of it...if you are consciously multiimensional, with an active thread to each level of consciousness. active participation can be made from the nothing,anywhere or indeed everywhere.
i remember participating from beyond before i walked in..and i know i am participating now, on all levels....my true nature is Nagual, my alignment is with Spirits will and, all destinys will be fulfilled in perfect timing.
my dreaming on
16/5/11
as it is my dream and i feel possibly relevant to this thread and doesnt involve the privacy of anyone else..i am posting it here....
last nights dreaming.
intent: to go to the 'point of origin' and take as many beings as i could there that were ready to join that intent.
Preparation. This nights dreaming i felt was very important so i have been intending it for about three days and before bed, i did aboiut 30 mins of Magical
Passes in the garden with bare feet redeploying energy and cultivating flow, so i could be the best i could be.
i stepped back and back and back until i was at the point of origin..there was no mind when i backed into it. opaque blackness, stillness and a shift in
molecular structure to becoming unified. after a few minutes, i came to the edge..still holding the intent that it was available to those who could get there..
Their were about thirty beings with their backs against the veils..they stepped back and merged with it a ripple of energy echoed back into the
universe when they disappeared (i guess this was all the Universal energy they were carrying.) then there was another line of about thirty beings who also
did the same thing as they backed into the nothing..another echo rippled from them towards the centre of the known worlds.
the dream shifted to me being huge and translucent with my womb opaque black, hosting the AP of the point of origin. this was unexpected dreaming.Then i
remember the size of me as i found myself travel to realm after realm within the universe receiving in all the beings into my womb, that were ready for the
shift, sometimes whole planets as small as peas miliions and millions of beings/spirits/souls all being drawn up and into my womb.....i felt very full, like i
was pregnant and i had the images of an egg floating down a fallopian tube and how this was similar in many ways to the journey of evolution of an
individual, a planet and a universe. i know with my next bleed that i will be shedding for the collective...it will start around the 20th May and will
continue for seven days....i am to notice individual.group and world events at this time..due to the shedding of constructs, rules and the engagement of
collective truth and knowledge.
Posts: 0
Threads: 0
Joined: Feb 2019
Nagual LoneWolf wrote:To address the above post: Rearranging the bubble as described and then bursting it, is a good physical description of what is happening when the shift is made to leave the body with full awareness. The tonal has been addressed, the nagual side is ready. Total toltality.
Achieving the third attention while alive is indeed the height of the sorcerer's power. Maintaining it at will requires much energy and cannot be achieved for very long periods before losing consciousness.
My first and foremost reason into reading the works of Castaneda was to seek freedom from death, thus when the Eagle's Gift came out, I was finally satisfied with an answer. The old seers led the way but the new seers under the lineage of the Tenant decided that maybe there was worse fates out there then death. So backing off, some began to ponder what they can achieve before crossing. Thus we have the warrior's way.
Ah, so you mean, to the new seers they saw by examining the path of the old seers, defeating death was not enough, because they (old seers) were still stuck with a self, this self had issues (i.e. self importance) which attracted unwanted consequences. In other words, after escaping death, their (OS) fates were not so great as they thought maybe. Its like the inner work will reflect the ap worlds/positions assembled, so the limitations are self-imposed when one does not do work to clear self(clouded thoughts and emotions). The new seers saw the advantage of forming parties while here and the purpose was to support each other in the quest of getting past the eagle (death), but not exactly like the old seers who were only concerned with defeating death, but a new way which is undoing all the self importance and then operating from a lighter vessel of awareness (their attention becomes lighter and more fluid due to releasing SI). Then when they died, or chose to leave the world as a party, or even individually perhaps, their ap could be shifted to a different position, one that was blocked for the old seers due to the awareness they practiced and could not 'get beyond'?
World's longest question, lol. And the above is/has been my seeing. So seeing if I read you correctly in which case we are in agreement then.
So its easy to see how from the new seers we got recap, shutting off internal dialog, defeating the flyer, death as an adviser for inner change, etc. Because the new seers were concerned with avoiding the mistakes of the old seers, which were not about the eagle so much, but about how the old seers faced their death. The old seers approached it as an end all it seems, where as the new seers wanted to create a better future (beyond death) by changing to now, that was inner directed. The new seers saw that when they gave up certain thoughts, beliefs, habits, they became quite different, non-human almost (compared to those around them). Certainly more abstract then the old seers. This penchant for abstraction opened up new possibilities for them (Power being itself abstract). Bottom line is work must be done here and now. The present moment is the most important for its here we meet the future. Discipline and sacrifice are ways of new/modern seers. Old seers had discipline, but did not sacrifice ways of self so their discipline actually served furthering of a self, even if it was a highly developed sorceric self capable of great feats (2nd attention). For new/modern seers its the opposite. They disciplined themselves and shattered self reflection through their tenacious discipline. Then used that liberation within 2nd attention to venture out to new worlds.
Posts: 0
Threads: 0
Joined: Feb 2019
Lex Silentio wrote:Reading all this put forth, it seems to me a basic understanding is now underscored here...that the key is getting past the eagle, whether one does it through the ways of an old seer, new seer or modern seer. Nu Lang
When I first started this thread and then had things fall into place with Nemo’s help, it produced a razor sharp apprehension of what I was trying to clarify here. Now two months and many responses later I am experiencing a lull and even dullness. The initial insight itself becoming clouded and feeling like it was just slipping into irrelevancy. So I went back and reread the very first post. For the sake of this dialogue I recommend others reread it too. But for now I think Post #8 addresses where Nu Lang wants to go with this.
Post #8
Now if you have followed this so far what DJ discovered is the totality of himself. Now because we don’t have a clear understanding of what this actually is and means it is not quite apparent why this is such a big deal for DJ. and why it necessitated that he deviate from the tradition of his predecessors. This is different than anything else that is talked about in the sorcerer’s tradition of that lineage. Now please understand from the literature we know that Naguals and their parties have been leaving the everyday world of 1st attention, but that is not what DJ is talking about. Remember according to DJ, his predecessors never achieved their totality! Seers both old and new have been leaving this planet for alternate realities for a very long time. It is the aim of some in this forum that at the point of death or before, they wish to transfer their awareness to their energy body, dart past the Eagle and go from there. This is pure second attention stuff and certainly not third attention.
“He said that the 2nd attention is also called the left side awareness; and it is the vastest field that one can imagine, so vast in fact that it seems limitless. I wouldn’t stray into it for anything in this world. It is a quagmire so complex and bizarre that sober seers go into it only under the strictest conditions” DJ FFW
Achieving this Totality that DJ speaks of is third attention and it is not something that lies “beyond” 2nd attention out there in the many varied layers, no, it is right here right now and it lies between 1st and 2nd attention. It is a supreme accomplishment to achieve this now without becoming disembodied awareness. The cosmic vagina lies between the legs of 1st and 2nd attention lol.
“The mastery of awareness must develop to its natural end, which is ....to extend the glow of awareness beyond the bounds of the luminous cocoon in one single stroke” DJ FFW
“We can better explain this by saying that the task of the teacher is to wipe clean one half of the bubble and reorder everything on the other half. The benefactor’s task then is to open the bubble on the side that has been cleaned. ONCE THE SEAL HAS BEEN BROKEN THE WARRIOR IS NEVER THE SAME. HE HAS THEN COMMAND OF HIS TOTALITY.
Half of the is the ultimate center of reason , the tonal. The other half is the ultimate center of will, the nagual. That is the order that should prevail; any other arrangement is nonsensical and petty, because it goes against our nature; it robs us of our magical heritage and reduces us to nothing.” DJ TOP
Now as far as I can see here, this is the difference, this cleaning and re-ordering the elements of the bubble of perception in preparation for breaking the seal, thus extending the glow of awareness beyond the bounds of the luminous cocoon and gaining Totality.
Something that is commonly reported when this happens, is that people cannot tell if they are in the body or out of the body. Until the seal is broken seers both old and new have encounters with the nagual in the left side awareness and shift between 1st and 2nd attention and back or never back. When the seal is broken human form is dropped, as it was very body (form) orientated, and in DJ’s words the wings of perception unfold and embrace simultaneously the tonal and the nagual, without all the back and forth.
Now what one ultimately does with the command of their Totality while they live out their lives here is another issue. And it matters not whether one is successful or not with the tasks they wait upon.
“Here is where I varied from the tradition. After a lifelong struggle I know that what matters is not to learn a new description (sorcery) but to arrive at the totality of oneself.” DJ TOP
So it is and it isn't about darting past the Eagle, Nu Lang, let me explain. If we think that its about forming a warrior party to leave the planet and sneak past the Eagle (product of the view of sorcery), then that is not what DJ advocates. His predecessors had been doing just that and according to DJ they missed what he achieved.
But if sneaking past the Eagle is equated to cracking the bubble of perception here and now then it relates more to a simultaneous embrace of 1st and 2nd attention and the emergence of 3rd attention as as an active, dynamic, intensity that expresses this "unfolding of the wings of perception" without getting overwhelmed/engulfed by either 1st or 2nd attention.I see we are in agreement. What has always been paramount to me is that work has to be done here. Third attention is not some way out there thing that just forming a sorcery party will 'get you to it'. I don't know of anyone at this forum who thinks that is the case, but if so, its certainly not the case and we actually learned all this from the examples CC gave too. Transforming while still here is what its all about, not merely escaping death (lack of self transformation route). This is the vantage from which the modern seers view. Thanks to Castaneda mostly who laid it all out and also wrote about the warnings, pitfalls, and mistakes of predecessors.
Posts: 0
Threads: 0
Joined: Feb 2019
Nagual LoneWolf wrote:Achieving the third attention while alive is indeed the height of the sorcerer's power. Maintaining it at will requires much energy and cannot be achieved for very long periods before losing consciousness.
Wolf, would you please say more on this? I've been able to balance 1st and 2nd attention, for brief periods of time. I find that the first attention seems to have a stronger 'gravitational' pull, so 2nd attention is more elusive, but not unattainable while awake, as we are speaking of waking attention (not dreaming). Inner silence is a key boost to access second attention. Now when speaking of 3rd its like even more removed from 2nd...is that it, that each level exerts more 'gravity' on first attention which seeks dominance (related to habit I think)? Just putting thoughts out here so you see what I'm asking about. I use the word gravity only to allude to the feeling.
Posts: 0
Threads: 0
Joined: Feb 2019
Because we observed it, it continued to exist.
This is how all of creation is~ so long as we sense it, it exists. ( And so the personal reverse is true~before we existed, when we are unconscious,and probably after we die, this physical world will cease to exist for us.) In any case, there is a clear and solid connection between matter and consciousness. Without consciousness to observe it, it seems that the entire universe of matter would dissolve back into energy!
Could the entire physical universe be a dream or thought in the " mind "of God, and that we are the eyes, ears, and senses of God!
It is unfortunate that in English we only have the word consciousness. There is no equivalent word for its reality. God answered "I am that I am " when Moses asked who are you ? A part of some continuum.
So if our thinking mind, our likes and dislikes, our opinions and fears- our thoughts- are not tools to help us connect with consciousness, but instead they keep us from it.
This would explain when a person dies( as we learn in the NDE's or shaman's death) and their thinking brain brain shuts down, they tell us there is no word in English for this consciousness.
"The entire universe is filled with the fire of life", they often say, "and I realized in that moment that I am part of it, seamlessly."
Aldous Huxley, in Doors of Perception, proposed that the mind serves as a filter, shutting out most of our awareness, closing the "doors of perception" so we can think. If we are fully aware , we can't think. When we're thinking, we are by necessity somewhat unaware!
When Jesus said that looking upon a woman with lust was the same as sleeping with her, he was referring to the danger of thinking of separating ourselves from the created world by our thoughts. Instead , he said very clearly, just be.
Posts: 0
Threads: 0
Joined: Feb 2019
"first attention which seeks dominance (related to habit I think)" - from my last post
I just wanted to add, related to necessity, not just habit. Such as motor skills required to operate a car without crashing into other objects. If you drive your car in 3rd attention, the vantage point of "all is one" you might perceive your oneness with a streetlight post... literally, lol.
First attention tells us whats up, down, right, left, forward, back... 2nd attention shows us layers of other realities, world imposed on worlds, endless form/space/dimension and within that formlessness, 3rd attention unites the totality of these two experiences in awareness. Now don't forget to fasten your seatbelt.
Posts: 0
Threads: 0
Joined: Feb 2019
ninth octave wrote:
Maybe everyone can read this and stay somewhat on the same page or come up with another conjecture.
http://www.inet.hr/~amodrusa/Tensegrity/armando.html 3rd Attention Awareness:
"At the core of these organisms a radically new kind of attention is generated, an intent oriented toward exploring the unknown,
investigating in teams,what we can otherwise cannot know. Feelings of individuality are no longer their operative center, because they have been substituted by something much more intense: living as part of a whole , an energy state that no ordinary man can even conceive of. There are no routines, there is no ego,there is no ignorance, there is no interpretation. That kind of organism is only one stage on the infinite path of awareness, but for us human beings, that stage is final."
-Carlos Castaneda
Posts: 0
Threads: 3
Joined: Feb 2019
Some ideas. maybe something maybe nothing. interwoven construsts.
i believe the third attention is not something to escape to , it is here now in front of us , when we realise we are it in perfection we are illuminated and move .
when duality ends and there is oneness how can there be separation to begin to interfere, although it is the interference which draws attention to what is , the perceiver ?
the lines of the nagual may fill their cup of one who wants to join with others to seek liberation. the large luminousity and collective realisation or action of movement of that collective. sustained awareness of collective worlds within duality . the planetary and karmic lines movements.
separation of identification being loss of self importance and movement into multiplicity ?
being non being , to understand oneness being, to understand our connection on a level of third attention awareness as multiplicity would surely be to understand we are perfect and merge without understanding with what cannot be known , the unknowable .
So in a need of duality to confront what is within this world with notions of perfect and imperfect is to move beyond that perfection.instead it is to realise this.
The luminousity contained within the cocoon of self , being liberated through that oneness .
when it touches upon it with desire to change it of its own in stead of being moved by spirit , brings forward combining its own lines to the sentient inorganic awareness of this planet and its inhabitants or outside of instead of expansiveness to be shared by the value of its being and non being simultaneously , balanced .
these bodies are way more than singular entities , everything being connected already , we are the collective dream .beyond this the view of the nagual being of inorganic binding of luminousity bound with a gravity forced by the singularity of oneself expansively within itself combining with those of others , the duality creates a dependence upon collective power by nature. the inorganic energy of the sentient earth and inhabitants. our collective state.
the expansiveness in proper measure constituting our beingness as awareness itself in all formless and form .
the burning from within spoken of and leaving with the entirety of ourselves surely not to be a singular point of luminousity which could be contained in a singular awareness but a state of awareness in which all exists and does not simultaneously exist as individuality .
so to leave or maintain an awareness which is borrowed and comes from a sentient planet within a select body to travel into the scope of unknowable , when a source that combines our entire spectrum of being beyond our comprehension is availble then we come into contact with a realisation that , there is nothing we can change on this earth nothing. and walk the path with heart . a man of knowledge.
Posts: 0
Threads: 0
Joined: Feb 2019
"Freedom is the goal of the new seers but if that goal becomes clouded by the ambitions of the old seers then even new seers such as Julian get waylaid."
so alls perfect then...was anyone really waylaid? was anyone really clouded?..isnt that a perception from our 'present'?
'point of origin' here...sounds like its a win win situation..no power struggles and no rights or wrongs.
NO rules..PERFECT for everyone...
Posts: 0
Threads: 0
Joined: Feb 2019
Great posts by Bit Shiney, Shamanka, Nu Lang....I'm still absorbing them and await Lex's response as well. I will add the third attention is for me the united awareness of tonal and nagual sides. Nu Lang your question was long and I agree with your interpretations and sentiments.
Posts: 0
Threads: 0
Joined: Feb 2019
"Do you know what is the Rule"? ( Castaneda )
"It is the name that seers have given to the guide of a party of sorcerers, a kind of navigational chart, a sample book of warrior's assignments and duties within the framework of his practices.
"After exhaustive verifications, the sorcerers of ancient Mexico came to the conclusion that, just as all living beings possess a defined biological pattern which allows reproducing and evolving, we also have an energy pattern responsible for our development as luminous beings."
"The mold of species extracts its energy from the Rule. The Rule is a kind of womb, it contains an evolutionary plan for every being, not only on Earth, but also in any corner of the universe where there is awareness. Nobody can break away from it. The worst we can do is ignore that it exists, in which case we won't reach our the stage where we can be what we truly are: Living mass in the service of a purpose we don't understand."
This sounds like a glamorous field of occupation after reaching third attention awareness-" Living mass in the service of a purpose we don't understand." (really???)
Posts: 956
Threads: 31
Joined: Feb 2019
Bob said: I go on a bible forum on which there are two basic philosophies about the end of the world. Those who look to world events and a future event of great magnitude. Those who believe all of the end time prophecies were fulfilled, beginning at the crucifixion and ending in 70 AD.I, on the other hand believe that all of these events will be individually fulfilled within the experiences and spiritual awakenings of individuals. One at a time.
My toupee off to you Lex
If I may expand on this Bob, that there is no real truth, or
rather one truth. These are all examples of alignment and all these earths are
divergent separate distinct earths that the makers of which will align with and
share a perspective from a holographic assemblage point position. You make your
world, by what you believe in, if you believe in forming groups, or whatever
your energy will flow in that direction. One of the many things that make this
time we are in different is that many masters are here to see if they can wake
up from the sleep they put themselves into, and waking up in part is the full
coming into view of our totality. This totality is what DJ arrived at, it has
to do with attention, it has to do with the energy of alignment, it has to do
with understanding our personal power, to see and move our intent beyound the
confines of the entrained AP that was forced on us by us. That last, bit had me
mad at myself for a while lol.
My seeing of the third attention, is that in the past it was achievable in this reality, but once you held it long enough you would resonate out of this field of activity, (the every day world) not because its a voyage somewhere else really, but because the ethereal body merged with the material body in heightened awareness, like a radio wave can not get picked up by receivers in a lower vibration, (this AP position 1st attention material world). An example often DJ and G could raise CC's energy to see the bubble's of awareness they created. The earth is multi dimensional, and at higher resonate fields the earth is clustering bands of awareness that have achieved that corresponding frequency. The third attention is just tuning into that frequency, a stable material type reality with awareness in it that have total awareness of intent, and as a group hold that AP, but remember this is not just one earth, and is not restricted to just one timeline, view it as expanded, remember infinity
One of the reasons for forming groups simply does not exist anymore
because the base energy configuration is moving away from one of pyramidal
hierarchy to a sphere, and the need to go anywhere other than earth is misleading. So working
on yourself making gentle soft manageable incremental shifts of the AP to a
position of your choice is all that is needed, see how your life will find
a way to show you the possibilities of your full potential, and have fun doing
it. There may even be a tenth or eleventh octave.
"What a
waste it is to lose one's mind.
Or not to
have a mind is being very wasteful.
How true
that is." Dan Quayle
Posts: 0
Threads: 0
Joined: Feb 2019
The tension for me in trying to grasp the Sorcerer’s Explanation
runs along the following vein:
It is difficult, if not impossible, (for me) to understand
the Sorcerer’s Explanation in CC’s terms.
The reason for this is two fold.
First, nothing of the sorcerer’s task is understandable in
anyone else’s terms apart from my own.
I think it safe to say that we’ve all read posts that sound as though
the information/knowledge is being regurgitated by the writer, manipulated through
someone else’s viewpoint, therefore it doesn’t feel ‘real’. I feel this same way when I read
CC. It feels very much like
butting my head against a wall when I try to ‘understand’ experiences through
his explanations. There was a time
when this wasn’t the case at all---I tried to digest everything he said as a
means of understanding this path.
And then came a point when I needed to set him aside in order to forge
my own path. Many people (here on
this forum) are in-between, in the reality between those two last sentences. And that’s perfectly all right! That’s what this forum is all
about. At the same time, there is
a viewpoint within the last sentence that is worth my while to express because
it’s where I’m at currently.
When Lex introduced the topic of the Sorcerer’s Explanation I
was not inclined to respond because I felt Lex was asking for an explanation
via the words of CC and DJ. Lex,
it is your bent to try to grasp these concepts through CC’s works---you explore
his works as though they are gospel, as though they are prima facie
tools with which to explore the journey.
For me, (and I want to qualify all that I say with that phrase because in the end it is only our own experiences that we sleep with at the end of the day ) CC does the best
he can do to explain terms for experiences he’s either not yet had or
experiences he’s not yet “digested”.
As Bob May has indicated sometimes we have experiences that don’t get
unraveled til long after the experience has come and gone.
I believe that CC was looking at the Sorcerer’s Explanation
through the lens of time so he got caught up in thinking and viewing it from
the perspective that it was sequential---1st, then 2nd,
and last the 3rd attention occurs. This was mentioned already in this thread. The reality that we can experience the
attentions at any time, in any order, doesn’t occur to us---nor did it occur to
CC. “Heaven on earth”---we don’t
really believe that happens in our lifetime. We believe instead that it is something to strive for, to
achieve, to work unceasingly for.
And our reward at the end is to either dart past the Eagle or to “arrive
at the third attention”. It
becomes a goal always dangled like a carrot in front of our nose.
Creative Destruction
Second, the term “creative destruction” came up recently in
an autobiography I was reading on Allen Greenspan. Being the “prima donna” economist for the FED for years, he
states in one of the later chapters that his ideas on the economic pulse of the
nation finally had to be recalibrated, not through the theory of economics that
he’d adhered to for decades but through current times. This went against his nature for
precision and what he considered to be tried and true economic theory. Finally, almost begrudgingly, he had to
let go of his ‘experience’ and allow himself to merge that same theory with
reality. Simple to say, difficult to do! At some point, we need to do this same thing with the
sorcerer’s explanation, with 1st, 2nd, 3rd
attention, with the Eagle---with all of it! We need to allow ourselves to enter fully into the moment in
which all explanation becomes moot.
And therein lies the tension for me: the structure of our thoughts, of our
actions, need to be recalibrated, to be re-set. Staring at the Sorcerer’s Explanation as a means of
understanding it is a trap---and yet,
it isn’t----and that’s the mystery,
the nagual. We must look slightly
off center or else the details of trying to grasp the explanation will ensnare
us—as I believe it did CC. Said
another way, clarity becomes the enemy.
Allen Greenspan used the accepted tools of an economist to perform his task
until those tools became less functional and unwieldy in the face of a changing
world. This change was unsettling
for him because it couldn’t be measured and run through his eco-metric
calculations. In other words, he
couldn’t calibrate “change” to his satisfaction until he was able to simply let
go of his preconceived ideas and experiences.
CC clung to wanting the explanation for “The Sorcerer’s
Explanation” as though once he was given it, all of his uncertainty would be
dispelled. DJ kept telling him
that the explanation wasn’t what he thought it would be---he kept warning him
not to get hung up on it. The sorcerer’s
explanation is as ephemeral as a bubble—here for a moment and then gone. The temptation to want there to be more
is a great one though! We do it
all of the time. We want to know,
we want to understand and we figure that getting more information will assist
us in understanding.
The Gateless Gate
For me, the Sorcerer’s Explanation is the Gateless
Gate. Only when looking back can we see that there is no
gate---there is no Sorcerer’s Explanation---- to be given!!!!! God, what does that even mean? For me, it means that there is no
distinction between the attentions, that the attentions were a device to help
with understanding and that we get caught up in differentiating them, that
“unfolding the wings of perception” happens when my mind is gone (literally)
and all of my attention is present at the moment before me. There is no thinking, there is no “me”,
there is only the act of perception, tooled by my awareness. Present and available now! But it takes
that shift away from directly staring at the explanation itself in order to
grasp it. We have to let go of our
preconceived ideas and desire for understanding---those ‘perceptual’ tools that
have served us well on many an occasion but no longer are suited to the task at
hand.
I understand that this discussion is geared toward getting
an understanding of the Sorcerer’s Explanation. And I understand that my description will not suffice for
one with a penchant for detail and description. I offer it, however, because the gate is there in front of
anyone who has yet to walk through it and so it is real and relevant to them at
the moment. What I’m offering is the reality that there is no explanation once
you’ve walked through the gate---it’s a somersault of thought into the
inconceivable and you only get there when you get there.
Posts: 0
Threads: 0
Joined: Feb 2019
nemo wrote:
Bob said:
I go on a bible forum on which there are two basic philosophies about the end of the world. Those who look to world events and a future event of great magnitude. Those who believe all of the end time prophecies were fulfilled, beginning at the crucifixion and ending in 70 AD.I, on the other hand believe that all of these events will be individually fulfilled within the experiences and spiritual awakenings of individuals. One at a time.
My toupee off to you Lex
If I may expand on this Bob, that there is no real truth, or rather one truth. These are all examples of alignment and all these earths are divergent separate distinct earths that the makers of which will align with and share a perspective from a holographic assemblage point position. You make your world, by what you believe in, if you believe in forming groups, or whatever your energy will flow in that direction. One of the many things that make this time we are in different is that many masters are here to see if they can wake up from the sleep they put themselves into, and waking up in part is the full coming into view of our totality. This totality is what DJ arrived at, it has to do with attention, it has to do with the energy of alignment, it has to do with understanding our personal power, to see and move our intent beyound the confines of the entrained AP that was forced on us by us. That last, bit had me mad at myself for a while lol.
My seeing of the third attention, is that in the past it was achievable in this reality, but once you held it long enough you would resonate out of this field of activity, (the every day world) not because its a voyage somewhere else really, but because the ethereal body merged with the material body in heightened awareness, like a radio wave can not get picked up by receivers in a lower vibration, (this AP position 1st attention material world). An example often DJ and G could raise CC's energy to see the bubble's of awareness they created. The earth is multi dimensional, and at higher resonate fields the earth is clustering bands of awareness that have achieved that corresponding frequency. The third attention is just tuning into that frequency, a stable material type reality with awareness in it that have total awareness of intent, and as a group hold that AP, but remember this is not just one earth, and is not restricted to just one timeline, view it as expanded, remember infinity
One of the reasons for forming groups simply does not exist anymore because the base energy configuration is moving away from one of pyramidal hierarchy to a sphere, and the need to go anywhere other than earth is misleading. So working on yourself making gentle soft manageable incremental shifts of the AP to a position of your choice is all that is needed, see how your life will find a way to show you the possibilities of your full potential, and have fun doing it. There may even be a tenth or eleventh octave.
"What a waste it is to lose one's mind.
Or not to have a mind is being very wasteful.
How true that is." Dan Quayle
Hi Nemo,My point was that in both schools of thought that I described above there is no spiritual awareness being acknowledged. Those of the 70 AD crowd think whatever happens happened to those who were there at that particular time and place. Those of the future crowd there is only waiting to be taken up at the end of their physical lives if they just happen to be lucky enough to be living when the "rapture" happens.Both forget that Paul was "taken up" (the phrase that has been translated as Rapture) and yet was able to write about it later.Yet, there is a "future event"/events for individuals. This speaks to Ninth's questions also.The world is not illusion as most claim. It is analogous. It is allegory. The symbols (physical things and events and people) are pointing to the hidden realities. The events that John described in Revelation are his seeing through the things happening on this earth plane as describing and illustrating what is going on behind the scenes. On a spiritual level.Ro 1:20
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:At some point in our awakening we begin to see we are in a play that is really a shadowplay of the reality that is hidden. We are living within a book in which we are part of the story. It is written allegorically and we can read it if we learn how to.
As Shakespeare said, "The world is but a stage and we are merely players."
Posts: 0
Threads: 0
Joined: Feb 2019
Nagual LoneWolf wrote:Nu Lang your question was long and I agree with your interpretations and sentiments.
Yeah, I sort of answered my own question along the way of typing out the post. That the reason its hard to sustain the third attention is that there is so much in the playing field of awareness, basically. Third attention does not resemble first or second, if it did, there would not be much achievement in attaining it.
Posts: 956
Threads: 31
Joined: Feb 2019
Hi Bob, I had an Uncle (Harvey) An Anglican minister, and in the old days Revelations was the most interesting part of the bible to me, and he wouldn't,t talk to me about it, told me it shouldn't be there and recommended that I stay away from it. lol. I grooved on that about him, the power to dismiss a whole part of the bible. I have no end of the world scenarios in my perspective, and if you believe this is a shadows play then that is what it is to you, to me it is not at all, it's in fact a most interesting, fascinating, intricate and magical world. DJ said the world is a reflection, but what it is reflecting is the real thing, I will go with that.
|
