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As Shakespeare said, "The world is but a stage and we are merely players."
I like this quote. It describes what I see too, that yes we experience the supernal, but we do it through the divine plays as actors who sweat, bleed and toil through an existence. Also there is a direction in the exisitence, just like a play has a plot and purpose. There are many plays. So we could say..
"The worlds are but stages..."
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When Lex introduced the topic of the Sorcerer’s Explanation I was not inclined to respond because I felt Lex was asking for an explanation via the words of CC and DJ. Lex, it is your bent to try to grasp these concepts through CC’s works---you explore his works as though they are gospel, as though they are prima facie tools with which to explore the journey. Jessicar
Jessicar you have neither understood me or DJ. I certainly do not explore CC’s works as though they were gospel and anyone familiar with my work in these forums would know that. In fact I restrain myself most of the time because of the nature of forums such as this. Sorcery and nagualism are not my chief concern. However what I have done in regards to CC and DJ and their words is try to understand them from their point of view and where ever possible shed light on anything I find. I have found DJ’s words multi layered and have personally gone through an evolution in my understanding of HIS work over the years. Perhaps you are not that interested in his work and that’s ok I understand.
Staring at the Sorcerer’s Explanation as a means of understanding it is a trap---and yet, it isn’t----and that’s the mystery, the nagual. Jessicar
We, certainly not me, is NOT starting at the Sorcerer’s Explanation. I first came across it years ago and have just recently dusted it off. I know for a fact that many here have been practicing these teachings to the best of their ability some for years, so they are not starting at this either. Ironic because DJ wanted to start with the explanation with CC but Genaro said No.
We need to allow ourselves to enter fully into the moment in which all explanation becomes moot. Jessicar
You might have personally moved beyond the Sorcerer’s Explanation but many haven’t. The sorcerer’s explanation is for sorcerer’s or those that thought they were learning sorcery. I think they deserve an explanation after years of investment. It might be moot for you but the explanation itself is not. It is still pertinent and helpful, and I might add brilliant! You might just want to inquire for the sake of your own understanding of DJ (if you have any interest that is), why DJ thought an explanation of this sought was important. You might not agree with him but just try to see where he is coming from before you dismiss him.
For me, the Sorcerer’s Explanation is the Gateless Gate. Only when looking back can we see that there is no gate---there is no Sorcerer’s Explanation---- to be given!!!!! Jessicar
I am familiar with the Gateless Gate and what it means. I would not equate it here. (Cracking the bubble of perception would be more aligned with that not the explanation). Even when we move beyond the sorcerer’s explanation it remains. When I look back I still see the Sorcerer’s Explanation and its worth. DJ himself said without adequate preparation the Sorcerer’s Explanation would have no effect.
What I’m offering is the reality that there is no explanation once you’ve walked through the gate---it’s a somersault of thought into the inconceivable and you only get there when you get there. Jessicar
Again not everyone is there Jessicar. And this little gem of DJ’s may appear worthless in your eyes, but why decry what you don’t understand or simply have no use for. I mean that’s like Buddha saying I have achieved enlightenment and really that’s all that matters so abandon everything else along the path that may help one along because ultimately it just doesn’t matter.
What I’m offering is the reality that there is no explanation once you’ve walked through the gate Jessicar
There it is ONCE YOU"VE WALKED THROUGH THE GATE, But you wish to take away the gate (the sorcerer's explanation in your equation) before people have had a chance to walk through it.
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Lex #61:
This thread “Sorcerer’s Explanation Reviewed”, is the expression of my
wrestling with the design’s of intent and the impact it had upon Don
Juan’s life (not easy to get to).
This thread represents the liminality of this process.
There was such a lack of participation in this thread by the
“sorcerer’s” of this forum. Regardless of what some might think of me, I
urge you to put aside any personal feelings good or bad toward me and
engage the content of this thread and let us hear from you.What do you
think about the direction DJ appears to be advocating?
Jessica:
I responded to your invitation above, Lex. Perhaps I missed the emphasis in your first sentence though when you stated that it is "my wrestling" and you would really prefer to wrestle alone in a public setting.
My experience of responding to your threads goes something like this:
Lex: "Hey, let's talk about such and such...." The topic is evocative and so I respond.
Jessica: "For me that topic evokes...."
Lex: "You misunderstand what I'm saying. You don't know what you're talking about...." This thread is a good example: you say, "Jessicar you have neither understood me or DJ."
I understand DJ to a significant degree. You, I understand less. I do understand though that you introduce your topic and channel all responses within a narrow band of terminology in order to keep it within your understanding of the topic itself. This is, I believe, the Achille's heel of syntax. It's when a topic is discussed in unfamiliar terminology and therefore discounted.
In addition you misread my words:
Jessica: Staring at the Sorcerer’s
Explanation as a means of understanding it is a trap---and yet, it
isn’t----and that’s the mystery, the nagual. Jessicar
Lex: We, certainly not me, is NOT starting at the Sorcerer’s Explanation.
My response to your invitation was to look at the Sorcerer's Explanation from a larger context than STARING at it straight on. I underscored that my response was mine alone and that there would be a tendency to want to continue looking at it from only one vantage point (i.e. yours).
Lex, I'd like to dialogue if you're open to doing so on those topics you post. If you'd prefer to talk them out alone while here on the forum I respect that, too. Please make your preferences clear.
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“They were men of great power, but they were not men of knowledge. They never broke the bounds of their enormous world views and thus they never arrived at the totality of themselves.” TOP, DJ speaking of his benefactor and teacher.
“Here is where I varied from the tradition. After a lifelong struggle I know that what matters is not to learn a new description but to arrive at the totality of oneself.” DJ TOP
These two points are probably the most critical. These are the kind of things that get me asking questions. The kind of questioning that has led to this thread. Points worthy of deeper consideration.
Since at least 1723 I take it that DJ’s lineage had been forming nagual parties and leaving.
So what was it that these men of great power in DJ’s lineage, naguals included, what was it they missed? And why did they miss it or not arrive at it?
Then why did DJ deviate or vary from the tradition of his predecessors?
And what was the nature of his varying from tradition, how did it differ etc?
“After a lifelong struggle I know that what matters is not to learn a new description but to arrive at the totality of oneself.” DJ
Why did DJ’s predecessors not know this? (DJ does suggest that some of them did know about this but could not arrive at it.) Why did they just adopt a new description, that is the implication here? Can one not accept the new description of the sorcerer’s view AND arrive at the totality of one’s self? If not why not?
It does seem though that one can adopt the new description of a sorcerer’s view and leave with a nagual party though?! I mean that is what happened to the nagual parties of DJ's lineage, they left without arriving at the Totality of them selves, according to DJ.
BE RIGOROUS in examination.
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nemo wrote:
Hi Bob,
I had an Uncle (Harvey) An Anglican minister, and in the old days Revelations was the most interesting part of the bible to me, and he wouldn't,t talk to me about it, told me it shouldn't be there and recommended that I stay away from it. lol. I grooved on that about him, the power to dismiss a whole part of the bible. I have no end of the world scenarios in my perspective, and if you believe this is a shadows play then that is what it is to you, to me it is not at all, it's in fact a most interesting, fascinating, intricate and magical world. DJ said the world is a reflection, but what it is reflecting is the real thing, I will go with that.
Hi Nemo,
You just said that what it is to me is not at all what it is to you, and then you went on to describe exactly what I believe and said that that was what you believe.
That is the allegorical nature of reality. The reflections of reality revealing the real thing.
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Lex:
See Exegesis post:
http://sorcery.yuku.com/topic/3315/Exegesis#.
Jessica:
Got it! You want to continue this thread but you want to be the only one doing the talking.
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I know this is a long thread, so I have condensed above what I believe to be the pertinent questions at this point. Now everyone has heard what I think about this. Contrary to how Jessicar wishes to position me, I would indeed like to know what others think, ABOUT THIS. I would like to continue with THIS, if that is ok with Jessicar of course.
DJ said he varied from his tradition, and his teachers. Am I the only one even remotely curious about this? I did not even realize this myself until this thread!
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i am interested and i posted. i believe its time for expansion, as in, all understanding..i can't do it from the books like yourself and i find long threads difficult to follow. may i suggest if you have time lex, to summarise this thread of where its 'at'(ie start another by a summary or start others by specific questions)so some of us, who would at least try to imput more, can do so, with the main points/questions prominent in our focus...xx shamanka xx
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Bob Said:
You just said that what it is to me is not at all what it is to you, and then
you went on to describe exactly what I believe and said that that was what you
believe.
That is the allegorical nature of reality. The reflections of reality revealing
the real thing."
Ok Bob, For clarity can you discribe what the "real thing" is, just to be sure we are in agreement.
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In my opinion, don Juan clouded the issue with all the sorcery stuff, all of what Zen calls "wondrous powers", added some jimson weed, some 'shrooms and peyote, did some smoke and mirrors stuff and very quietly stated the real goal, which gets lost usually because of its simplicity. As stated, it is to achieve the totality of oneself. Pretty boring, and without magic or power. Arrange the items of the tonal, recapitulate, find out who you are in your totality, the good, the bad, the ugly, accept it, and achieve your totality.
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Gonzo wrote:In my opinion, don Juan clouded the issue with all the sorcery stuff, all of what Zen calls "wondrous powers", added some jimson weed, some 'shrooms and peyote, did some smoke and mirrors stuff and very quietly stated the real goal, which gets lost usually because of its simplicity. As stated, it is to achieve the totality of oneself. Pretty boring, and without magic or power. Arrange the items of the tonal, recapitulate, find out who you are in your totality, the good, the bad, the ugly, accept it, and achieve your totality.
I experience magic and power in my life! So what do you think the difference is Gonzo?
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We all experience magic in our lives. I suspect most ignore it, however. In my opinion, its just part of being human and is a part of our totality, however, not to be made any more important than other aspects. The thing is, I suspect don Juan used it as a hook.
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[b][b][b][b][b][b][b][b][b][b][b][b][b][b][b][b][b][b][b][b][b]Lex[/b][/b][/b][/b][/b][/b][/b][/b][/b][/b][/b][/b][/b][/b][/b][/b][/b][/b][/b][/b] Silentio wrote:[/b]
“They were men of great power, but they were not men of knowledge. They never broke the bounds of their enormous world views and thus they never arrived at the totality of themselves.” TOP, DJ The ancient old seers allowed themselves to be "seduced"by their own interpretation of the Rule. They made the error of identifying the Rule with their particulr interpretation. So I suppose they were self-indulgent , self- important egotistical sorcerers. The Rule is final. The Rule was never up for another interpretation only its design and configuration are in constant evolution. This would explain why every once in 2600 years or something like that it was time for a 3 pronged nagual like Castaneda to come along. The Old seers wound up worshipping or glorifying themselves and errecting in its honor.. is benefactor and teacher.
“Here is where I varied from the tradition. After a lifelong struggle I know that what matters is not to learn a new description but to arrive at the totality of oneself.” DJ TOPThe new seers rejected all that the old seers were doing. When the new seers began to explore stalking , they dusted offf the essence of sorcery and rediscovered the goal of total freedom which did not resemble religious goals in any way. IT ERASED THE FACINATION OF THE HUMAN MOLD, BUT IT HAD A SECONDARY EFFECT : THE WILD ENTHUSIASM OF THE OLD SEERS WAS SUBSTITUTED BY FURTIVE AND SUSPICIOUS ATTITUDES.
These two points are probably the most critical. These are the kind of things that get me asking questions. The kind of questioning that has led to this thread. Points worthy of deeper consideration.
Since at least 1723 I take it that DJ’s lineage had been forming nagual parties and leaving.
So what was it that these men of great power in DJ’s lineage, naguals included, what was it they missed? And why did they miss it or not arrive at it?How the Old Seers almost became extinct: The appearance of the Toltecs; The incorporation of STALKING DETERMINED THE BIRTH OF THE NEW SEERS>THE RULE OF THE NAGUAL IS COMPLETELY ELUCIDATED. Then why did DJ deviate or vary from the tradition of his predecessors?And what was the nature of his varying from tradition, how did it differ etc?IN THE END, THE EFFECT STALKNG HAD ON NAGUAL PARTIES WAS TO BETRAY THEIR INITIAL MOTIVE. IN TIME< THE GOAL OF TOTAL FREEDOM WAS REDUCED TO RHETORIC. ALMOST ALL THE SORCERERS OF DJ'S LINAGE PREFERRED THE FLIGHT TO THE 2nd ATTENTION WITH THE EXCEPTION OF THE NAGUAL JULIAN OSORIO, NONE OF THEM WANTED TO BE DEPRIVED OF THE ADVENTURE AND ECSTASY OF VISITING THE DOME OF THE NAGUALS, CONSTRUCTED OF INTENT, LOCATED ON ONE OF THE STARS OF THE CONSTELLATION ORION.“After a lifelong struggle I know that what matters is not to learn a new description but to arrive at the totality of oneself.” DJ
Why did DJ’s predecessors not know this? (DJ does suggest that some of them did know about this but could not arrive at it.) Why did they just adopt a new description, that is the implication here? Can one not accept the new description of the sorcerer’s view AND arrive at the totality of one’s self? If not why not?
It does seem though that one can adopt the new description of a sorcerer’s view and leave with a nagual party though?! I mean that is what happened to the nagual parties of DJ's lineage, they left without arriving at the Totality of them selves, according to DJ.
BE RIGOROUS in examination.NO RULE FOR THE STALKERS"BUT THERE WAS ONE THING THE ANCIENT SEERS DIDN"T VERIFY: THE RULE FOR THE STALKERS. THEY VIEWED STALKING AS A LATENT POSSIBILITY WHICH WAS NOT WORTHWHILE TO EXPLORE IN PRACTICE."WHY?BECAUSE IN AN ERA WHERE BEING A SORCERER MEANT BEING AT THE TOP OF THE SOCIAL SCALE, STALKING AS AN ART HAD NO PURPOSE. IT WOULD HAVE BEEN A POOR INVESTMENT. BUT WHEN THE MODALITY OF THE TIME CHANGED, THAT LINE OF REASONING BROUGHT THE OLD SEERS ALMOST TO THE EDGE OF EXTINCTION." PS, ALL OF THIS info IS here http://www.inet.hr/~amodrusa/Tensegrity/armando.html
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ninth octave wrote: PS, ALL OF THIS info IS here http://www.inet.hr/~amodrusa/Tensegrity/armando.html
In other words, you agree with the old seers and the notion of a Naguals Party?
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Is it so?
Here is Castaneda's explanation:
THE TASK OF TODAY' S SEER
"UPON VERIFYING THE RULE OF THE 3 PRONGED NAGUAL, DJ DEDUCED THAT INEVITABLY, THE TIME OF A NEW BREED OF WARRIORS WAS AT HAND; HAVE CALLED THEM THE MODERN SEERS. "
"THE TRUE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN SEERS OF THE PAST AND THOSE OF TODAY IS IN THEIR BEHAVIOR. AT THE MOMENT, WE ARE NOT SUBJECTED TO THE SAME REPRESSIONS AS IN PREVIOUS ERAS, AND THEREFORE SORCERERS HAVE FEWER RESTRICTIONS .CLEARLY , THIS HAS A PURPOSE : POPULARIZATION OF THE TEACHINGS.
YOUR DOUBLE WON'T LEAVE UNTIL YOU ARRIVE AT YOUR TOTALITY . THE THEORETICAL PART IS FINISHED, AND IT IS TIME TO GIVE YOU A GIFT."
"THE FINAL TEACHING SAYS THAT IN CONNECTION WITH INTENT , EVERY PERSON, WHOEVER IT MAY BE, WHO APPROACHES HE NAGUAL, HAS HIS PACE INSID THE TOTAL CONTEXT OF THE RULE. SO YOU RE NOT ALONE; SORCERERS ARE EXPECTING SOMETHING FROM YOU."
~ CARLOS CASTANEDA
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Gonzo wrote:
ninth octave wrote:
PS, ALL OF THIS info IS here http/www.inet.hr/~amodrusa/Tensegrity/armando.html
In other words, you agree with the old seers and the notion of a Naguals Party?
I agree that there is a Rule- that is a living breathing violent matrix surrounding our planet that has been around forever sucking the life force energy out of all living breathing beings I suppose that where all that dark matter goes. It is said this universe is composed of 75% of this stuff. I think that where the wasted energy of anything that doesn't learn how conserve their own energy-thus surviving because they have learned to live the impeccable life `~the trait of the warrior ~ will know when to tip toe ( to the left )-passing the Eagle's awareness. There is a force out there that wakes us from dreaming. I don't know what that is either. But I think upon death - or when one will naturally reach their totality- when all will be revealed to them in their double.
"Living mass in the service of a purpose we don't understand" ~ Is this what we all amount to? I really don't like the sound of that unless there is a new song, new story, a new challenge that no one has ever known or heard before. Not that I am a special breed but there has to be something at least magical in the recycled storehouse. lol , Is that so?
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nemo wrote:
Bob Said:
You just said that what it is to me is not at all what it is to you, and then you went on to describe exactly what I believe and said that that was what you believe.
That is the allegorical nature of reality. The reflections of reality revealing the real thing."
Ok Bob, For clarity can you discribe what the "real thing" is, just to be sure we are in agreement.
Hi Nemo,
If I said God we probably would not be in agreement. Each person's idea of God ( if they have one) grows as they do. If I said Truth the same would probably be true.
I would say that Reality is that which is permanent rather than temporary.
But back to the context of our conversation.
Jesus was approached by an angry mob asking him for his opinion about what should be done to a woman caught in adultery. He was stooping down writing letters in the dirt with a stick. He stood up and said, "Let you who are without sin cast the first stone." Then he stooped back down and began writing letters in the dirt with his stick.
He was, in my opinion, acting out with his body the same truth he was speaking to the crowd. The spirit of the law is above the letter. The law called for stoning of the woman.
My point here is that he was a living allegory. But not only was he a living allegory he saw the allegory going on around him.
Lu 12:24
Consider the ravens: for they neither sow nor reap; which neither have storehouse nor barn; and God feedeth them: how much more are ye better than the fowls?He saw in the physical world around him as symbols pointing to God's providence.
Paul saw things in the same way.
Ro 1:20
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:So the invisible, eternal things are shown by the things that are made or the thing which do appear.
Heb 11:3
Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
Ga 4:23
But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
Ga 4:24
Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
Ga 4:25
For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
Ga 4:26
But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
So Paul sees the invisible through the appearance of things. He sees in the stories of two women and two mountains, two covenants. One symbolising total freedom and life the other slavery and death.
Jesus sees in a raven that God will provide for us.
So,..What is reality to me? That which the allegories are pointing to.
That which is invisible, eternal, provides for all of my needs and brings total freedom.
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HI Bob,
Do you believe their is an allegory for The Eagle , the Rule, The Nagual's Party. ???
The raven is a bird like the eagle ...The Rule is impersonal , lacks kindness or compassion. I see an allegorical story in this too.
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When I read here the posts from those who associate God with the universe/infinity, I have to add that based on my seeing this "Eagle" and all the beings that come to it, come from the earth. This Eagle hovers over the earth. Not infinity nor the heavens, not the vastness. The "spirit" I feel is of this earth. My opinion/belief only and not meant to change yours but I base it on what I have seen in visions over several times and years. The eagle's rule only applies to the beings here on this earth. If there are other eagles preying on other inhabited worlds in the infinity of universes I do not know.
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Hi Bob, So you are saying, what is being reflected is something invisible that provides for our needs?
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ninth octave wrote:
HI Bob,
Do you believe their is an allegory for The Eagle , the Rule, The Nagual's Party. ???
The raven is a bird like the eagle ...The Rule is impersonal , lacks kindness or compassion. I see an allegorical story in this too.We all know how symbolism works. A symbol is the clothing for a truth. An author uses symbols to communicate ideas. Ther idea is the truth or idea that the author is trying to communicate. You might look at a symbol as a veil. In Western mystical tradition there is a saying. "The veil that conceals a mystery, when meditated upon reveals the mystery."
These veils can be words written in a book, the elements of the physical world around us, the situations that we find ourselves in etc.,
Allegory is a story made up of these symbols and truths.
After many years of bible study I found myself in the book. It told me exactly what I had done ten minutes before while experienceing a spiritual vision.
Finding myself in the book was a life changing awareness of how this works.
Jesus was baptised and went into the wilderness. The first thing he did was find himself written in the book and read it standing in the synagog.
This is because he was showing us a pattern that we are completely unaware of until this experience happens to us.
I have had similar experiences since then. Jesus said "Follow me" and "I am the way." This was not a request.
All I could think was that the book was alive when this happened to me. No, it was I that was becoming aware or alive.
Later, I began to see that this same thing was happening, not just in the book but around me in the environment and events I call my life.
The Eagle is obviously a veil. It is covering or veiling a reality that sorcerer's wish to experience.
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nemo wrote:
Hi Bob, So you are saying, what is being reflected is something invisible that provides for our needs?
Ultimately, yes. For the Mystic because that is the goal. There are many paths and side roads that lead to many dead ends.
Learning to read the book is to learn to read the symbols that point to the Real. Many do not want to get to the Real or never learn to read the symbols.
A map is of no use without a "You Are Here."
In the Gospel of Truth in the Nag Hammadi Library it states that there is a "Book of Life."
If you can read the book, you are written in the book. And visa versa if you are written in the book you can read it. I believe this book refers to the bible but also beyond that. We live within this book. We just have to learn how to read it. This idea contained in this scroll merely affirmed what I already believed.
Power provided a student for Don Juan. It also provided a teacher for not only Carlos but all who have read and will read his books. Don Juan took Carlos on walks in the desert "hunting for personal power." He expected things to happen and they did.
These things imply an intelligent Being providing for those seeking.
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Bob May wrote:
ninth octave wrote:
HI Bob,
Do you believe their is an allegory for The Eagle , the Rule, The Nagual's Party. ???
The raven is a bird like the eagle ...The Rule is impersonal , lacks kindness or compassion. I see an allegorical story in this too.We all know how symbolism works. A symbol is the clothing for a truth. An author uses symbols to communicate ideas. Ther idea is the truth or idea that the author is trying to communicate. You might look at a symbol as a veil. In Western mystical tradition there is a saying. "The veil that conceals a mystery, when meditated upon reveals the mystery."
These veils can be words written in a book, the elements of the physical world around us, the situations that we find ourselves in etc.,
Allegory is a story made up of these symbols and truths.
After many years of bible study I found myself in the book. It told me exactly what I had done ten minutes before while experienceing a spiritual vision.
Finding myself in the book was a life changing awareness of how this works.
I see what you are meaning here, Bob. The Bible invites us in to have personal relationship with the Father and Son. I come closest to a Mary Magdalene with a cross between an Ezekiel and Gideon and Peter. Paul asks us to put on the mind of Christ, be imitators of his life. I am well behind in having much spiritual experiences but I believe every one living is written into the Logos.
Jesus was baptised and went into the wilderness. The first thing he did was find himself written in the book and read it standing in the synagog.
This is an excellent example of what you're meaning.
This is because he was showing us a pattern that we are completely unaware of until this experience happens to us.
This is the way it has been happening for me. God showing the patterns of the OT matching to the spiritual experiences that equate with the blessing of those who can see the beginning and the end. To be in the spiritual experience or seeing someone in the spiritual experience is a blessing also.
I have had similar experiences since then. Jesus said "Follow me" and "I am the way." This was not a request.
All I could think was that the book was alive when this happened to me. No, it was I that was becoming aware or alive.
The Book is pregnate and living and breathing organism. Never runs out of its energy and one will find a way to see things in a new and different light. It will appear for you to see and know in a different context when previously it didn't seem it was there.
Later, I began to see that this same thing was happening, not just in the book but around me in the environment and events I call my life.
The Eagle is obviously a veil. It is covering or veiling a reality that sorcerer's wish to experience.
There are many referrences to "Eagle" in the bible.
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