DO you believe there is a GOD and why?

[Nagual LoneWolf]

I was listening to a song by Nine Inch Nails and part of its lyrics were "God is dead and no one cares, if there's a hell, I'll see you
there." So I would like to know if any here have an opinion on the matter. I,myself have never believed in the christian description of god with its
heaven and hell. I honestly cannot say I believe in "God" but rather have always followed my own experiences with the unseen nagual spirit I only
know as my "god". What do you think? Do you think God has a assemblage point?

[Bob May]

Nagual LoneWolf wrote:

I was listening to a song by Nine Inch Nails and part of its lyrics were "God is dead and no one cares, if there's a hell, I'll see you
there." So I would like to know if any here have an opinion on the matter. I,myself have never believed in the christian description of god with its
heaven and hell. I honestly cannot say I believe in "God" but rather have always followed my own experiences with the unseen nagual spirit I only
know as my "god". What do you think? Do you think God has a assemblage point?

Assemblage point positon is nothing more than a pathway to some aspect of God, probably what Don Juan refered to as the "Great Bands of
Emanations".. Which position dictates the aspect of the "All" (or God) that we are aware of at that moment of time.




The "Christian" description as you put it has no meaning.


A Christian's description changes like everyone elses if they are growing in understanding.


Heaven and hell are not places. They are here, now. Places in consciousness, so to speak.


Two people can be sitting together on a couch in a room. One is in Hell and the other in Heaven.


God has ALL of the assemblage points and the realities that one becomes aware of when contacting them.




Ps 139:



7
Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?


8
If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.


9
If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;


10
Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.


11
If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me.


12
Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.

[Bob May]

<p> </p>

[Nagual LoneWolf]

I knew you would respond and enlighten us ..So if God has a ap then once one can access it then he can access God? Plus I have to write the question in such
a way to attract responses.

[Bob May]

Nagual LoneWolf wrote:

I knew you would respond and enlighten us ..So if God has a ap then
once one can access it then he can access God? Plus I have to write the question in such a way to attract responses.


The point in a circle who's center is everywhere and who's circumference is nowhere.


You could say that WE are God's assemblage points.


How could God experience other than God other than by reflection.




In the Beginning when the.. "Spirit of God hovered over the Face of the waters." It is talking about God reflecting Himself/Itself. The Beginning of
the One becoming many aspects Of the One Causeless Cause.


The "Face of the Waters" (surface) is a mirror and Hovering is Vibration. (Don Juan refers to the Nagual as "Where Power Hovers") All of
this is way beyond what we call matter.


It is a way of looking at the ongoing Creation we live within. It is constant Creation as a flow of a waterfall. Or Constant Vibration, the poentiality to
manifest acording to the Patterns inherent in the Creator.




The "Beginning" is the dividing line between what we can understand and what we cannot.


Beyond that neither Religion or Science has any say so. No Time, Space or Linear anything.




But being that it cannot be understood, does not imply that it cannot be experienced






Genesis 1




1
"In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.


2
And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of
the waters.





6
And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.


7
And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament:
and it was so.


8
And God called the firmament Heaven."



So we see that God's definition of "Heaven" is that of a Veil or Division of "Waters" that are far beyond what we refer to as water.
These "Waters" are both Before and/or Beyond (depending upon which way you look at it) what we can concieve of as Matter or even the "stuff that
dreams are made of".


The average man's idea of "heaven" has nothing to do with this.




This is pure I AM consciousness. Or God.

[molleighmarie]

On the whole god thing, I'm a hope for the best expect the worse person.


My ego doesn't want me to ever stop perceiving, so of course I hope there's a god and a afterlife.....but its also knowing how the ego operates that
supports my thoughts that there probably isnt a god. People love to be comfortable, and feel safe, and that often fuels their beliefs. I've seen too many
things in my life to rule out anything, so I just keep searching, as open minded as I can. Couldnt even begin to speculate if "god" has an
assemblage point.

[The Fool]

Here's what Meister Eckhart (1260-1328) had to say about God :

Beati pauperes spiritu

Blessedness opened its mouth of wisdom and spoke: "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." Every angel and every saint and everything that was ever born must remain silent when the wisdom of the Father speaks; for all the wisdom of the angels and of all creatures is sheer nothingness before the groundless wisdom of God. And this wisdom has declared that the poor are blessed.

Now there exist two kinds of poverty: an external poverty, which is good and is praiseworthy in a person willing to take it upon himself or herself through the love of our Lord Jesus Christ, because he was himself poor on earth. Of this poverty I do not want to speak any further. For there is still another kind of poverty, an inner poverty, by which our Lord's word is to be understood when he says : "Blessed are the poor in spirit."

Now I beg you to be such poor to understand this speech. For I tell you by the eternal truth, if you are not equal to this truth of which we now want to speak, then you cannot understand me.

Various people have questioned me about what poverty is in itself and what a poor person is. That is what we want to answer. Bishop Albrecht says that a poor person is one who takes no satisfaction in any of the things that God ever created-and that is well said. But we say it better still and take poverty in a yet higher understanding: he is a poor person who wills nothing and knows nothing and has nothing. Of these three points we are going to speak and I beseech you for the love of God that you understand this truth if you can. But if you do not understand it, do not worry yourselves because of it, for the truth I want to talk about is of such a kind that only a few good people will understand it.

First, we say that one is a poor person who wills nothing. What this means, many people do not correctly understand. These are the people who in penitential exercise and external practices, of which they make a great deal, cling to their selfish I. The Lord have pity upon such people who know so little of the divine truth! Such people are called holy on account of external appearance, but inwardly they are asses, for they do not grasp the real meaning of divine truth. Indeed, these individuals too say that one is a poor person who wills nothing. However, they interpret this to mean that one should so live as to never fulfill one's own will in any way, but rather strive to fulfill the ever-beloved will of God. These people are right in their way, for their intention is good and for that we want to praise them. May God in his mercy grant them the kingdom of heaven. But in all divine truth, I say that these people are not poor people, nor do they resemble poor people. They are highly considered only in the eyes of those who know no better. I, however, say that they are asses who understand nothing of divine truth. Because of their good intentions, they may receive the kingdom of heaven. But of that poverty of which I now want to speak, they know nothing.

These days, if someone asks me what a poor person is who wills nothing, I answer and say: So long as a person has his own wish in him to fulfill even the ever-beloved will of God, if that is still a matter of his will, then this person does not yet possess the poverty of which we want to speak. Indeed, this person then still has a will with which he or she wants to satisfy God's will, and that is not the right poverty. For a human being to possess true poverty, he or she must be as free of his or her created will as they were when they did not yet exist. Thus I say to you in the name of divine truth, as long as you have the will, even the will to fulfill God's will, and as long as you have the desire for eternity and for God, to this very extent you are not properly poor, for the only one who is a poor person is one who wills nothing and desires nothing.

When I still stood in my first cause, there I had no God and was cause of myself. There I willed nothing, I desired nothing, for I was a pure being and a knower of myself in delight of the truth. There I willed myself and nothing else. What I willed, that I was; and what I was, that I willed. There I stood, free of God and of all things. But when I took leave from this state of free will and received my created being, then I had a God. Indeed, before creatures were, God was not yet "God"; rather, he was what he was. But when creatures came to be and when they received their created being, then God was no longer "God" in himself; rather, he was "God" in the creatures.

Now we say that God, insofar as he is "God," is not a perfect goal for creatures. Indeed, even the lowliest creature in God possesses as high a rank. And if a fly possessed reason and could consciously seek the eternal abyss of divine being out of which it has come, then we would say that God, with all he is as God, would still be incapable of fulfilling and satisfying this fly. Therefore we pray God to rid us of "God" so that we may grasp and eternally enjoy the truth where the highest angel and the fly and the soul are equal. There is where I stood and willed what I was, and I was what I willed. So then we say, if people are to be poor in will, they must will and desire as little as they willed and desired when they were not yet. And in this way is a person poor who wills nothing.

Second, a poor person is one who knows nothing. We have said on other occasions that a person should live a life neither for himself, nor for the truth, nor for God. But now we say it differently and want to go further and say: Whoever achieves this poverty must so live that they not even know themselves to live, either for oneself or for truth or for God. One must be so free of all knowledge that he or she does not know or recognize or perceive that God lives in him or her; even more, one should be free of all knowledge that lives in him or her. For, when people still stood in God's eternal being, nothing else lived in them. What lived there was themselves. Hence we say that people should be as free of their own knowledge as when they were not yet, letting God accomplish whatever God wills. People should stand empty. Everything that ever came out of God once stood in pure activity. But the activity proper to people is to love and to know. It is a moot question, though, in which of these happiness primarily consists. Some authorities have said that it lies in knowing, some say it lies in loving, still others say that it lies in knowing and in loving. These are closer to the truth. We say, however, that it lies neither in knowing nor in loving. Rather, there is a something in the soul from which knowing and loving flow. It does not itself know and love as do the forces of the soul. Whoever comes to know this something knows what happiness consists in. It has neither before nor after, and it is in need of nothing additional, for it can neither gain nor lose. For this very reason it is deprived of understanding that God is acting within it. Moreover, it is that identical self which enjoys itself just as God does. Thus we say that people shall keep themselves free and void so that they neither understand nor know that God works in them. Only thus can people possess poverty. The masters say that God is a being, an intelligent being, and that he knows all things. We say, however: God is neither being nor intelligent nor does he know this or that. Thus God is free of all things, and therefore he is all things. Whoever is to be poor in spirit, then, must be poor of all his own understanding so that he knows nothing about God or creatures or himself. Therefore it is necessary that people desire not to understand or know anything at all of the works of God. In this way is a person able to be poor of one's own understanding.

Third, one is a poor person who has nothing. Many people have said that perfection consists in people possessing none of the material things of the earth. And indeed, that is certainly true in one sense: when one holds to it intentionally. But this is not the sense that I mean.

I have said before that one is a poor person who does not even will to fulfill God's will, that is, who so lives that he or she is empty both of his own will and of God's will, just as they were when they were not yet. About this poverty we say that it is the highest poverty . Second, we have said one is a poor person who himself understands nothing of God's activity in him or her. When one stands as free of understanding and knowing [as God stands void of all things], then that is the purest poverty. But the third kind of poverty of which we are now going to speak is the most difficult: that people have nothing.

Now give me your undivided attention. I have often said, and great masters say this too: people must be so empty of all things and all works, whether inward or outward, that they can become a proper home for God, wherein God may operate. But now we say it differently. If people stand free of all things, of all creatures, of God and of themselves, but if it still happens that God can find a place for acting in them, then we say: So long as that is so, these persons are not poor in the strictest poverty. For God does not desire that people reserve a place for him to work in. Rather, true poverty of spirit consists in keeping oneself so free of God and of all one's works that if God wants to act in the soul, God himself becomes the place wherein he wants to act-and this God likes to do. For when God finds a person as poor as this, God operates his own work and a person sustains God in him, and God is himself the place of his operation, since God is an agent who acts within himself. Here, in this poverty, people attain the eternal being that they once were, now are, and will eternally remain.

There is a saying of Saint Paul's which reads: "But by the grace of God I am what I am" (I Co. 15:10). My own saying, in contrast, seems to hold itself above grace and above being and above knowing and above willing and above desiring. How then can Saint Paul's word be true? To this one must respond that Saint Paul's words are true. God's grace was necessarily in him, and the grace of God accomplished in him the growth from accidental into essential being. When grace finished and had completed its work, Paul remained what he was.

Thus we say that a person must be so poor that he or she is no place and has no place wherein God could act. Where people still preserve some place in themselves, they preserve distinction. This is why I pray God to rid me of God; for my essential being is above God insofar as we consider God as the origin of creatures, indeed, in God's own being, where God is raised above all being and all distinctions, there I was myself, there I willed myself, and I knew myself to create this person that I am. Therefore I am cause of myself according to my being, which is eternal, but not according to my becoming, which is temporal. Therefore also I am unborn, and following the way of my unborn being I can never die. Following the way of my unborn being I have always been, I am now, and shall remain eternally. What I am by my [temporal] birth is destined to die and be annihilated, for it is mortal; therefore it must with time pass away. In my [eternal] birth all things were born, and I was cause of myself and of all things. If I had willed it, neither I nor any things would have come to be. And if I myself were not, God would not be either. That God is "God," of this I am the cause. If I were not, God would not be "God." It is not necessary, however, to understand this.

A great master says that his breakthrough is nobler than his flowing out, and this is true. When I flowed out from God, all things spoke: God is. But this cannot make me happy, for it makes me understand that I am a creature. In the breakthrough, on the other hand, where I stand free of my own will and of the will of God and of all his works and of God himself, there I am above all creatures and am neither God nor creature. Rather, I am what I was and what I shall remain now and forever. Then I receive an impulse which shall bring me above all the angels. In this impulse I receive wealth so vast that God cannot be enough for me in all that makes him God, and with all his divine works. For in this breakthrough I discover that I and God are one. There I am what I was, and I grow neither smaller nor bigger, for there I am an immovable cause that moves all things. Here, then, God finds no place in people, for people achieve with this poverty what they were in eternity and will remain forever. Here God is one with the spirit, and that is the strictest poverty one can find.

If anyone cannot understand this discourse, let them not trouble their hearts about it. For, as long as people do not equal this truth, they will not understand this speech. For this is an unveiled truth that has come immediately from the heart of God. That we may so live as to experience it eternally, so help us God. Amen.

[Guest]

Yes

[Nagual LoneWolf]

Bob May wrote" The point in a circle who's center is everywhere and who's circumference is nowhere. You could say that WE are God's assemblage
points. How could God experience other than God other than by reflection. " In my humble opinion, meaning I would not impose it upon another, believe even
God has an assemblage point. That if I could assemble the correct energy I would perceive God (if there was such). I like to keep explanations simple. Above
May writes "How could God experience other than by reflection?". By a AP would be my answer. Remember the beak in the Eagle's gift? Thus
God's AP is described by ancient Indian seers known as Toltecs. The assemblage point is a being's particular perception of the universe. I would
suggest even God experiences his own creation if it is such. Lujan good to see you back at Separate Reality. Molly: God loves you.

[Nagual LoneWolf]

"Here's what Meister Eckhart (1260-1328) had to say about God"


Thanks for sharing with us with M. Eckhert words. Do you believe in God?

[The Fool]

Seeing is believing.




Beliefs are pitfalls for the spirit.

[Nagual LoneWolf]

SOOOOOOOOOO...are you saying you have seen God my friend?


(I am playing for those who do not know me)

[The Fool]

No, i just meant that believing in God is pointless. And unfortunately we can see where it leads sometimes.




But almost ! Here's a little story : in the mid 90's i was experimenting with LSD with a friend with whom i've done it since we were 15. That night
we decided to take a good dose, 2000 micrograms, 20 drops of pure liquid LSD. It kicked pretty fast and quickly i felt that this time we had taken too much and
that i was dying. So i accepted to die. At some point i was feeling and seeing i was on a sort of a membrane with an infinity of eyes that although the
membrane was flat could all look at each other at the same time. My feeling was that i was on the wing of a Kerub or Cherubin, the guys just before God in the
Christian theology, and that i was gonna be shown the face of God. Unfortunately, at a point my friend freak out and shouted my name saying : "What have
we done ?". I thought oh, i'm not dying but i'm certainly really far out. Needless to say the rest of the night was pure bliss !

[Hawkeye Crow]

Nothing like that rebellious NIN stuff , Lonewolf. I indulge as well , at times.




Anyhow , The Fool said it for me. There is also a guy on the radio , Virato, who says the same thing.




So , I used to believe. I have been a truthseeker for many years , which led me to some thoughtful wisdom , such as don Juan. As I've stated before ,
learned from the CC books , my mortality is too puny to ever begin to know what God is or might be. All I know is the effects within this AP. There ends
belief , there begins acceptance . A made-up mind is a dead mind. Belief is dangerous . The news reports of Hindus attacking Christians for not converting.
I don't give a rat's ass for either , anymore. Such conservatism is backward looking , and I need to look forward to see that I don't stumble
into an abyss.




There is a creation, I am part of it , and I am grateful for the opportunity. My thanks is evident , and I have learned to listen closer to the voice
rather than talk over it with my pleas and submissions. All sources of wisdom are worth exploring , I am currently reading "The Last Temptation of
Christ". This too is informative. In fact , I am grateful to not know what God is so that I won't try to proselytize anymore , nor will I listen to
it. I will listen to the direct voice of Power that flows through everything; birdsong , the wind , the coyote and wolf , the silence within and more.




Before I forget: what about those visions of God being merely the Human Mold?




I used to say that if God was a hand , I was a finger, a part of the whole. Maybe , yet much smaller and finite than that.

[Hawkeye Crow]

So the Bible reads. Yet , I dicovered at least one unpublished sentence before that one. Maybe there are more. Castaneda wrote of a new Syntax. No
beginning , no end , but flow with highs and lows , dimness and brightness. To consider such a thing is an AP shift in itself. Infinity. Stand between two
mirrors , 180 degrees , maybe 10 feet, apart , and you too can view a piece of infinity. Actually , I did this with LSD as well , and no mirrors , by
closing my eyes. Another time , I became energy and went rushing through space. Thankfully, I was able to stop it and return , although my AP had shifted.
Eventually , I returned to 'normal' !

[Nagual LoneWolf]

The use of certain drugs I'm sure creates a shift that opens the gates to infinity. I would guess by shifting thus one learns its possible. I find the word
syntax highly useful. It is a word that creates. I like creation especially when then are crowned with a possibility the average man can shift his assemblage
point and see the mold of man as did Carlos our seeker of god in Don Juan's world.

[Hawkeye Crow]

There is a fictional story , from a song , about a pilgrim who asks the Dalai Lama of the meaning of life. The reply was , "Life is like a beanstalk,
isn't it ?". Now , my guess is that we can only grow up to the sun , and then wither with the coming of winter. Once it dawned on me what was
written about Syntax in 'The Active Side of Infinity' , it was Eureka! of course , a new point of view outside of the common perception. Somehow
there is no finality even though it seems that way to mortals.




Actually , I returned to this thread to admit that I do find the general ritual of the New World nations very attractive , and that ritual is expressed in
Castaneda. That is , to acknowledge the powers that rule our world . As I understand it , from the Dakota , the Six directions , which all know. North ,
south , east , west, Grandmother below our feet , Grandfather Creator of the Cosmos.






I am viewing a documentary on poet Allen Ginsberg right now. That reminds me of a line he was partly responsible for , from a song by a band known as The Fugs
, about death. "Bury me in an apple orchard , that I may kiss your lips again..." . Damn, is that in the Bible? A quote from Sitting Bull ,
perhaps. Those words bring a tear to my eye and a rise in the breast. I am yet alive , I can feel , hell , I can feel eternity.

[Hawkeye Crow]

Quote from Jack Kerouac : "Walking on water wasn't built in a day."




Oh gee gosh yes. Beliefs are truly dangerous.




Knowledge and observation are useful. Silence of Mind

[The Fool]

"Knowledge and observation are useful. Silence of Mind"




Hawkeye Crow, i agree 200%. I would just had : self-knowledge and self-observation.




I don't use psychedelics anymore (and i don't recommend their use). My last journey was in 2002 with mexican psylocibs. I had far more significant
experiences in terms of breaking the human mold under the guidance of my regretted master.




"Bury me in an apple orchard , that I may kiss your lips again..."




Maybe Rumi ?

[Bob May]

Nagual LoneWolf wrote:

Bob May wrote" The point in a circle who's center is everywhere and who's circumference is nowhere. You could say that WE are God's
assemblage points. How could God experience other than God other than by reflection. " In my humble opinion, meaning I would not impose it upon another,
believe even God has an assemblage point. That if I could assemble the correct energy I would perceive God (if there was such). I like to keep explanations
simple.




My point is that if God had an assemblage point, then it is everywhere. Where could God "move" or "shift" that God wasn't before that
move? It would still be "in" God.




Above May writes "How could God experience other than by reflection?". By a AP would be my answer. Remember the beak in the Eagle's gift? Thus
God's AP is described by ancient Indian seers known as Toltecs. The assemblage point is a being's particular perception of the universe. I would
suggest even God experiences his own creation if it is such. Lujan good to see you back at Separate Reality. Molly: God loves you.




I see it may be more of a case of emphasis or accentuation,.. "tuning in" to the harmonics of the particular aspect of God that you seek. All of
the Great bands of Emanations are Here, Now.




Rom 10:


6


But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down
from above


7
Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)


8
But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

[Hawkeye Crow]

I don't do them anymore , either. In fact , I quit ganja because it failed to do anything for me . The AP is likely the reason for that; the context , the
syntax has changed and does not suit me today.




I grew up in the Cold War. From 1950 forward , Death , the obliteration of all life on Earth , was always at my left shoulder. Death has defined my life.
That's not saying that got the message .




The most well known story at the time was "On the Beach" , by Neville Shute, made into a movie around 1961 or so. On September 10, 2001 , Showtime
aired a two-part remake of the same film. I was recording it , but part two was interrupted on September 11, 2001 , by the attack on N NYC.

[Hawkeye Crow]

Scripture is useful , but can be misleading. As long as we refer to God as 'thou' , we will never begin to know anything about God. We can know
about the Spirit , which is holy , yes , but no more so than anything else created. It , too , is not a 'thou' .

[delawaredan]

All of the discussion about god keeps us trapped in the first attention, trying to understand the unknowable.
There is the known, the knowable, and the unknowable....all of which are "god".




The way that can be spoken of is not the constant way. To be at one with the spirit is believing in god. We are all part of the higher power. Wouldn't
every assemblage point combined be god, the nagual spirit. The silent knowlege of the nagual is nirvana, the trap of the flyers produce the perception of hell.

[Nagual LoneWolf]

Trapped in the first attention. That is done by keeping our aps thus. I feel I am one with the spirit but is the spirit I am one with God? When I ask i do not
get that answer. A higher power is also not a description I would use unless higher meant more powerful. I never heard silent knowledge be referred to as
Nirvana but why not? Smile. Nirvana I would consider a condition... Good points in all Dan!

[The Messiahist]

Yes there is. I believe in God because I believe I have experienced him, and not just a few times, but countless times. Also, I have a friend who has a video
on google videos, and he explains his view of God: Click here.