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In this discussion Lex pretty much says he despises those who believe rigidly the teachings of Don Juan to Castaneda. I agree with the intent that people in general have this illusion of Don Juan and Castaneda as naguals. Castaneda was a college student who met this mexican indian who introduced him to mescaline and to the lineage teachings derived from ancient toltec sorcery. Most westerners would not have given Don Juan a minute's notice little alone go with him into the mountains. Don Juan and Don Genaro were men who were not perfect and nowhere near the status of saints. It this warrior teaching of being impeccable that creates that illusion. Being impeccable is incorporating dreaming, stalking and defeat of the foreign installation to gain power and the link with the nagual. A warrior who succumbs to the power wasting ways of the foreign installation will not advance on the path of the warrior and man of knowledge.
A world of objects, emptiness and beings who form it through assembling the emanations of the power of the universe at large. Yes we assemble, try and make order, arrange and rearrange, fight and destroy each other.
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Yes, Carlos even gave Don Juan a mystique, becasue he admired DJ, so wrote about his shining eyes, his graceful gait, his superb timing...remember how he got on that bus first meeting?...timed so perfect and picturesque...Carlos drawing us readers into his vision. But at this juncture we as experienced warriors would do better to see him as a dirty, plain ole Indian, you seem to be saying...which is I think the case that would help many a warrior begin to look to him/herself as magical instead, due to the object of worship (DJ) being so like us...human, regular in this world of objects.
Movie stars are the same, perceived as super human...till you meet them in person, then you realize so much is altered by modern tech (TV, computer, magazines, books etc) and distant admiration and build up of reputations, glitter, glamor, grandiosity. Illusions really. Styx wrote about this phenomena called the grand illusion.
Written by Dennis DeYoung
Lead Vocals by Dennis DeYoung
Welcome to the Grand illusion
Come on in and see what's happening
Pay the price, get your tickets for the show
The stage is set, the band starts playing
Suddenly your heart is pounding
Wishing secretly you were a star.
But don't be fooled by the radio
The TV or the magazines
They show you photographs of how your life should be
But they're just someone else's fantasy
So if you think your life is complete confusion
Because you never win the game
Just remember that it's a Grand illusion
And deep inside we're all the same.
We're all the same...
So if you think your life is complete confusion
Because your neighbors got it made
Just remember that it's a Grand illusion
And deep inside we're all the same.
We're all the same...
America spells competition, join us in our blind ambition
Get yourself a brand new motor car
Someday soon we'll stop to ponder what on Earth's this spell we're under
We made the grade and still we wonder who the hell we are
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Very good posts,
And a very important principle.
A bird cannot fly until it falls from the nest.
The day I realized my teacher was just a man like any other was a very freeing and necessary event in my life.
Back in those days (1977) there was no internet and books on esoteric subjects were difficult to find. I had to drive many miles to downtown Chicago or Wheaton Illinois to the Theosphical bookstore to find anything on these subjects.
As I had recently gotten back from Carbondale Ill. where I had gone in response to following Don Juan's advice to leave everthing you knew and stopped the world after a few years of following the teachings outlined in JTI. I was a confused young man having opened the doors of perception and neede some sort of guide. A teacher or philosophy or both.
I considered myself very fortunate indeed when I and a friend found my teachers small church within a 1 hour drive from home.
John called himself a Christian Mystic. A Qabalist and had gone through a spontaneous awakening in 74' which almost killed him. I watched him change the weather many times, he had his home set up like a doctor's office in which many miracle healing were performed.
Short version, to get to my point, is that for 14 years my life was centered on attending classes, church services, bible study and weekend meditations with the man.
In short, I held the man above other men.
As time went on the tenor of teachings got more and more based on old Testament biblical law. Following his system of knowledge I had had many experiences both while in meditation and during waking life. There was no doubt as to the validity of his teachings.
One day while in an early morning meditation group at the basement of our small church, I began feeling love as a force or energy flowing through me. I began to picture, in my mind's eye people that I knew who were away in other states and sending them this love energy flowing through me. All of a sudden John's face came in my mind's eye, but it was different than the others. It was different in quality in that it seemed to be "drawn of white light" like a fine pen and ink drawing but made of light.
I quickly turned away (in my mind) and said to myself, "no not John". Then I though "Why not send energy to John?" I turned back toward this image and watched his face grow a full body in profile with his arm bent at the elbow and his hand extended forward. By now the white light that made up the image had a "living qualty" to it. It sparkled. And he was looking forward at something and I could see the light in his eyes were sparkling with love.
Then I saw that he was holding hands with someone who was standing in front of him as two men might hold hands while shaking hands with each other, but they weren't shaking hands, just holding hands and looking in each other's eyes with love and respect. The other man was not detailed like John, in fact his image appeared to be blurred. Then I looked more closely. The other man was made up of fibers of light like a scarecrow is made of straw. Tiny, almost microscopic, fibers that I could focus in on and see individually. And focussing back out again I could see the love these two had for each other and the idea passing between them seemed to be that this other man was telling John that he had done well.
Then it hit me. I was looking at Jesus.
(Much later I came to the realization that this experience was very similar to what had happened on the Mount of Transfiguration to the three apostles, Peter, James and John.)
I was floored to say the least. I told my friends what had just happened and went home to look in my bible. Having known the last place that I had "found myself", so to speak in the biblical stories of Jacob, I opened to a page and began reading. I read just a few lines and there it was. The answer to the question: Was I to look at John as just another of the bretheren or as something more?
Ge 35:7
And he built there an altar, and called the place Elbethel: because there God appeared unto him, when he fled from the face of his brother The sychronicity of this event astounded me and also the implications. I had more questions than answers.
Jesus is not only alive but he still appears to people to teach and guide them.
John is just like the rest of my bretheren.
The synchronicty, ("reafirmations from the world around us" or "the world agreeing with us" ), extends not only to spiritual visions acting as the "messenger" of those reafirmations from Spirit but also the bible itself seemed to "know" what I was asking when I was asking it.
The phrase "living Word" seemed to hold a different meaning for me. Did the words actually change? Or do we just read it differently?
The events that had just taken place were beyond mere "coincidence."
I took the day off work to go ask John what had just happened and to answer some of these questions.
He told me that of course he was just one of the bretheren, just a guy who had experienced more than others.
I asked him if the bible changes (I was very confused) or if someone else would have the exact same experience as I had just had. He told me some parts apply more to one person and other parts apply to others.
I asked him what he was doing at the exact time I saw him. Was he awake and walking around or was he in meditation???
He said what I had seen was his higher self. That is all the answer he gave me.
Sometimes a person is so dense that they need to be hit in the head with a two by four for something to sink in. That seems to be the case with me. Why have I had more visions and such than the friends with whom I attended that church and meditation classes etc.
That and the fact that I had already opened some doors following Don Juan's system of knowledge before attending that church.
I was wrestling with this experience, trying to understand it when, the very next day, an even more astounding thing (if that is even possible)happened to me. This time I was not in prayer or meditation but sitting in my living room, having a conversation with my wife and a friend.
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Bob May wrote:
Very good posts,
And a very important principle.
A bird cannot fly until it falls from the nest.
The day I realized my teacher was just a man like any other was a very freeing and necessary event in my life.
Back in those days (1977) there was no internet and books on esoteric subjects were difficult to find. I had to drive many miles to downtown Chicago or Wheaton Illinois to the Theosophical bookstore to find anything on these subjects.
As I had recently gotten back from Carbondale Ill. where I had gone in response to following Don Juan's advice to leave everything you knew and stopped the world after a few years of following the teachings outlined in JTI. I was a confused young man having opened the doors of perception and neede some sort of guide. A teacher or philosophy or both.
I considered myself very fortunate indeed when I and a friend found my teachers small church within a 1 hour drive from home.
John called himself a Christian Mystic. A Qabalist and had gone through a spontaneous awakening in 74' which almost killed him. I watched him change the weather many times, he had his home set up like a doctor's office in which many miracle healing were performed.
Short version, to get to my point, is that for 14 years my life was centered on attending classes, church services, bible study and weekend meditations with the man.
In short, I held the man above other men.
As time went on the tenor of teachings got more and more based on old Testament biblical law. Following his system of knowledge I had had many experiences both while in meditation and during waking life. There was no doubt as to the validity of his teachings.
One day while in an early morning meditation group at the basement of our small church, I began feeling love as a force or energy flowing through me. I began to picture, in my mind's eye people that I knew who were away in other states and sending them this love energy flowing through me. All of a sudden John's face came in my mind's eye, but it was different than the others. It was different in quality in that it seemed to be "drawn of white light" like a fine pen and ink drawing but made of light.
I quickly turned away (in my mind) and said to myself, "no not John". Then I though "Why not send energy to John?" I turned back toward this image and watched his face grow a full body in profile with his arm bent at the elbow and his hand extended forward. By now the white light that made up the image had a "living qualty" to it. It sparkled. And he was looking forward at something and I could see the light in his eyes were sparkling with love.
Then I saw that he was holding hands with someone who was standing in front of him as two men might hold hands while shaking hands with each other, but they weren't shaking hands, just holding hands and looking in each other's eyes with love and respect. The other man was not detailed like John, in fact his image appeared to be blurred. Then I looked more closely. The other man was made up of fibers of light like a scarecrow is made of straw. Tiny, almost microscopic, fibers that I could focus in on and see individually. And focussing back out again I could see the love these two had for each other and the idea passing between them seemed to be that this other man was telling John that he had done well.
Then it hit me. I was looking at Jesus.
(Much later I came to the realization that this experience was very similar to what had happened on the Mount of Transfiguration to the three apostles, Peter, James and John.)
Hey, Bob May
The thought of Jesus and the Transfiguration also came to heart as I was reading your vision.
I was floored to say the least. I told my friends what had just happened and went home to look in my bible. Having known the last place that I had "found myself", so to speak in the biblical stories of Jacob, I opened to a page and began reading. I read just a few lines and there it was. The answer to the question: Was I to look at John as just another of the bretheren or as something more?
I believe it is our inhertence or birthright- if we may be so bold to believe we really ALL are the seed of Abraham -as the numerous as the grains of sands and stars! I know this probably sounds like poetic rhetoric until one experiences the truth of its infinity given it in dreams or visions realized in waking life. We find ourselves living within the pages of the living Word once those words are heard and our eyes are begin to see the immensity of its translation seen in people, places and things. All being part of our spiritual wisdom.
Ge 35:7
And he built there an altar, and called the place Elbethel: because there God appeared unto him, when he fled from the face of his brother The sychronicity of this event astounded me and also the implications. I had more questions than answers.
Jesus is not only alive but he still appears to people to teach and guide them.
John is just like the rest of my bretheren.
The synchronicty, ("reafirmations from the world around us" or "the world agreeing with us" ), extends not only to spiritual visions acting as the "messenger" of those reafirmations from Spirit but also the bible itself seemed to "know" what I was asking when I was asking it.
The phrase "living Word" seemed to hold a different meaning for me. Did the words actually change? Or do we just read it differently?
The events that had just taken place were beyond mere "coincidence."
I took the day off work to go ask John what had just happened and to answer some of these questions.
He told me that of course he was just one of the bretheren, just a guy who had experienced more than others.
I asked him if the bible changes (I was very confused) or if someone else would have the exact same experience as I had just had. He told me some parts apply more to one person and other parts apply to others.
I asked him what he was doing at the exact time I saw him. Was he awake and walking around or was he in meditation???
He said what I had seen was his higher self. That is all the answer he gave me.
Back in 1974, I had a similar vision of my father. I was a young teen who was always at odds with my father. One morning he was talking to me and I suddenly began to see his eyes and face transfigure in front of me. He shimmered and glistened in radiance. All I could feel was love, forgiveness, and contentment beyond reasoning. After considering as CC would write it was a state of heightened awareness. I thought at that time in my young life I was really hallucinating in my manic high. I wrote about this over on PP, it was Lex who recognized Ephesians 3: 18-19 in this heightened state of awareness...may be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; and to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
Sometimes a person is so dense that they need to be hit in the head with a two by four for something to sink in. That seems to be the case with me. Why have I had more visions and such than the friends with whom I attended that church and meditation classes etc.
That and the fact that I had already opened some doors following Don Juan's system of knowledge before attending that church. Paul felt the knock of spirit after having a vision of Jesus and being thrown of his high horse of self-importance . Paul saw the manifestation of the Spirit
after he spent 14 years of " not doing" in the desert of Arabia.
I have yet to read Journey To Ixlan...
I was wrestling with this experience, trying to understand it when, the very next day, an even more astounding thing (if that is even possible)happened to me. This time I was not in prayer or meditation but sitting in my living room, having a conversation with my wife and a friend. Maybe this means you were "transported" with the Spirit as was Phillip in Acts or Genero in Tales of Power??
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Bob, can You tell me please about punishment in Hell ?
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ninth octave wrote:
Bob May wrote:
(Much later I came to the realization that this experience was very similar to what had happened on the Mount of Transfiguration to the three apostles, Peter, James and John.)
""Hey, Bob May
The thought of Jesus and the Transfiguration also came to heart as I was reading your vision.""
In the transfiguration Jesus was met by Moses and Elias representing the Law and the Prophets bearing witness to Jesus. With me it would have been John representing Both law and prophets. The bodies of light also fit.
Mt 17:2
And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
Mt 17:3
And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
Mt 17:4
Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
And here again we see the placing of something for remembrance. Tabernacles this time instead of stones.
""I believe it is our inhertence or birthright- if we may be so bold to believe we really ALL are the seed of Abraham -as the numerous as the grains of sands and stars! I know this probably sounds like poetic rhetoric until one experiences the truth of its infinity given it in dreams or visions realized in waking life. We find ourselves living within the pages of the living Word once those words are heard and our eyes are begin to see the immensity of its translation seen in people, places and things. All being part of our spiritual wisdom.""
Yes, it does take boldness to think of your teacher as an equal with you. We are so trapped in a hierarchy state of mind. But the New Testament tells us we are "fellow heirs" with Christ. How much moreso with our teachers. But it was a giant leap for me at the time. And it took an earth shattering experience to make it sink in to my mind.
""Back in 1974, I had a similar vision of my father. I was a young teen who was always at odds with my father. One morning he was talking to me and I suddenly began to see his eyes and face transfigure in front of me. He shimmered and glistened in radiance. All I could feel was love, forgiveness, and contentment beyond reasoning. After considering as CC would write it was a state of heightened awareness. I thought at that time in my young life I was really hallucinating in my manic high. I wrote about this over on PP, it was Lex who recognized Ephesians 3: 18-19 in this heightened state of awareness...may be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; and to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.""
It is when a verse "jumps out at you" that you find yourself in the book. It was written not only "for us" but also "about us." Our trials and tribulations seen in the Law, and stories of war etc., our escape from Egypt which is our subconscious mind ruling over us. Our coming to an awareness of Grace after the Cross which even changes how we then understand the Old Covenant and the reason for it.
""Paul felt the knock of spirit after having a vision of Jesus and being thrown of his high horse of self-importance . Paul saw the manifestation of the Spirit
after he spent 14 years of " not doing" in the desert of Arabia.""
Most people don't catch that fact. Paul after his vision went to Damascus for 14 years. He was a master of the Old Testament Law. His "not doing" is exactly what I am describing here. After seeing Jesus alive well after his crucifixion he would have gone and studied the scriptures again in a completely different manner. Jesus said that Moses wrote of him. This is not obvious by any stretch of the imagination. Moses wrote the Law. Yet if you read the Old Testament allegorically, it is all about Jesus and what happened to us because he came.
It was the "not doing" of reading scripture.
I have yet to read Journey To Ixlan...
I was wrestling with this experience, trying to understand it when, the very next day, an even more astounding thing (if that is even possible)happened to me. This time I was not in prayer or meditation but sitting in my living room, having a conversation with my wife and a friend. "" Maybe this means you were "transported" with the Spirit as was Phillip in Acts or Genero in Tales of Power?? ""
Phillip was transported bodily. He physically unmanifested and remanifested somewhere else. Genero had a double which could not eat food. When Jesus manifested to the disciples in a locked room he ate with them.
What I described above was a vision and a visitation, I guess you could call it.
Spirit manifests in many various ways. Maybe more than are written about. I have experienced a few. I was never physically unmanifested but my teacher thought he was once.
You can be pulled up. You can "rise on the planes." Power or visions can drop on you. You can have visions in dreams or during meditations or see things while completely awake and going about your daily business.
One thing I have learned is that you cannot imagine these thing until they actually happen. They are that far beyond the normal waking experiences. And the things I have experienced were all different from each other. Why that is I don't know.
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scout1 wrote:
Bob, can You tell me please about punishment in Hell ?
Hi Scout,
Yes, it is not necessary.
It really gets to the heart of the bible as a whole. There are really two completely different covenants in the bible. Agreements, contracts between god and mankind. These two contracts or "covenants" are layed out in the old and new Testaments.
The first Covenant is all about effort. Do good get good do bad, get bad. Cause and effect. You see we live in a cause and effect world because of the "Fall". Or as you would call it a predatory world. We were originally spiritual beings. Adam (the race of mankind) were a race of spirtual beings. We were cast out of the Garden and given coats of skins which are vehicles appropriate to this earth plane.
There were/is also another race of beings called angels. Some of them fell also. Though they are invisible most of the time they also walk to and fro in this same plane with us, the earth plane. With a "lateral shift" of the assemblage point we can actually see them sometimes. There is no need to "rise to another plane", to see them. Just open up a little and they are here. They influence peoples thoughts and actions. They hate us with a passion because we were given a chance to escape this world, they were not.
God gave us a Law that we could understand. Do good, get good do bad and die. The goal of that Law was to reach perfection by our own efforts. This includes our thoughts. (Now remember that our thoughts are being influenced by fallen angels) They may be fallen, but they still have the powers that angels have. In other words, WE ARE HELPLESS.
Keeping the Law is impossible. The last book of the Old Covenant/Testament clearly states that no one was ever able to keep the Law. So, since if you break one law you are counted guilty of all the law, we were all worthy of Death, not of our bodies, but of our souls. That was the contract.
As Paul said the law was brought in to bring every man guilty before God. Total humility. Total lack of self importance, in other words we come to a knowledge of the Truth.
Then enters The New Covenant. Since one man sinned (allegorically Adam is one man), only one man had to be perfect to fulfill the contract.
We sinned and he died. Contract fulfilled.
It is a predatory universe. But the "predators" are stuck here in the lower planes. This would include the physical earth plane and the lower astral planes. There is a saying in the Qabala that the Serpent's head can only reach to the Abyss, Daath (which means Knowledge= actual biblical experiential knowlege).
We are either under Grace (which means a gift) or under the Law. There are no in betweens they are mutually exclusive.
If you are under the Old Covenant everthing is effort and performance. And everyone naturally draws to this because it is the way everthing that we've ever known works.
But Jesus came and pointed out that we had been reading the scripture and looking at the world completely wrong.
"Consider the RAVENS: for they neither sow nor reap; which neither have storehouse nor barn; and God feedeth them: how much more are ye better than the fowls?"
This and many other things he said seem to run entirely against the Old Testament Law. That is because he is pointing toward the Spirit rather than the Letter both in scripture and in the world around us.
Anyone can see that the world is predatory. That is obvious. We have to learn to see what is not obvious, what lies behind the veils.
Then even the Old Testament begins to tell us it's secrets. That it has been pointing to Grace the entire time. It is mankind that has been misinterpreting from the beginning.
Zec 4:6
Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.It is then that life becomes effortless and the predators lose there hold over us.
I found myself in a plane of darkness once. I could not feel God or light or anything good only darkness. Jesus felt the same thing on the Cross.
"And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou FORSAKEN ME?"
All I had to hang on to was the thought that God would not have brought me this far to let me go out this way. Again I was not afraid of dying but of the death of my soul. As far as appearances it looked hopeless. But in reality God was there with me.
Ps 139:8
If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
Ps 16:9
Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope.
Ps 16:10
For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Ps 16:11
Thou wilt show me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.
Though some of the lines quoted above are prophecies about Jesus, it does not mean they don't apply to us. Believers (those that come to an awareness of Grace) are "fellow heirs" with Christ. We get what he gets.
Maybe that is why I ended up in that plane in the first place. To have the oppotunity to go through some of what he went through. Both good and bad. Much more good came later.
Don't worry so much about predators and hell. Begin to look at the Ravens.
The seers of the Old Testament only saw far off in the future what the seers of the New Testament would experience.
"These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them AFAR OFF, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth."
If you look for the negative you will find it. It is all around us. Look beyond the veils, beyond appearances and you will find what is hidden there,...treasures.
Too much talk of hell and predators gives them more power than they actually have. They are more powerfull than us but not more powerful than He who gave us promises. And we are fellow heirs with him. Believe it. Because if you believe that it is true.
That is all the effort required.
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So If you don’t mind I would like to use what you said as an example here.
We have the challenge and opportunity to face the unknown daily!!!
The unknowable is anything we’ve NOT experienced!!!
Death
for example. By the time we get to death, it’s no longer the
unknowable; it’s now become the unknown as we move into the realm of
experience, and then immediately it becomes the known. That movement
from unknowable, to unknown, to known, happens in a millisecond-
Jessicar.
This view you have presented here Jessicar is at odds with DJ’s view.
Lex,
I don't mind you using what I said as an example at all although this is my response to your comments above. I did not know that my view differed from DJ's. Years ago knowing that my view differed would have been a point of contention--after all, I'd read CC's works multiple times and felt as though I knew them fairly well as a unit of work--AND would have been the first to claim strict adherence to him. I find myself in different times now because my awareness is at a different place.
The download of knowledge that has been building within and which unfurled last week contributes to this response. When I used GPS as an example of dreaming gone mechanical and becoming a devastating diversion for seers, I include the tendency for us today to do the same thing with our mapping. The map becomes the finger which is pointing at the moon---and we claim we've arrived on the moon. So I lack the desire and, frankly, your finesse to respond with the same syntax. It no longer holds the same appeal that it used to for me.
Now, having said that, I also want to say that my download last week included a clarity about mapping--and that clarity involves the fact that as much as we want to collaborate on our mapping (as in comparing notes with CC and DJ), our mapping is unique to each one of us. If mapping for you includes comparing notes with DJ, so be it. For me that ended up feeling like I was chasing my own tail---around and around, thinking, feeling, and believing that I was seeing something different when I was seeing the same thing over and over again. I needed to remove myself from that particular GPS system and step out into the unknown in order to explore on my own. Doesn't mean those days of adhering to CC and DJ weren't fabulous---because they were---it does mean though that the path to the unknown for me is in stepping off any system, including my own, and standing at the doorstep of infinity, and facing each and every moment as though it has come to me in order to dance with me, and me alone. This opportunity is available to each one of us as soon as we drop the intensive mapping that is such a part of the quest (and that has stood us in such good stead for so many years!)and stand boldly at the door of the mystery, or the nagual.
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Hi Jess,
Practice versus theory. We have to take time to do both and sometimes I find the need to get completely away from these things for periods of time. Let ideas "incubate." At least that is what I have found.
There is a time to speak and a time to be silent. We make our discoveries in silence and share them by speaking.
You raise good points.
And as you point out, we can get so caught up in the maps sometimes that what the map is supposed to be leading us to is right in front of our faces and we miss it.
I was on a bible forum for a while where most of the members were genuine scholars. Years upon years of studying ancient Greek and Hebrew etc. A lot of arguing going on but not much experiential knowledge. Study has to be balanced by doing. (or not doing)
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ninth octave wrote:
"If you enter a state of non-ordinary reality, it is only to draw from it what you need in order to see the miraculous character of ordinary reality, for me the way to live-the path with heart-is presence in the world." Carlos Castaneda
I think CC is giving the new seer a hint in this quote.
The new seer trains their eyes to unseen what their eyes have been telling them to see since birth. The pre-existing condition that our eyes and views have been accustomed to seeing just because. The new seer can see the magic, the mystery in the mundane by changing the ordinary world with a parallel perception that aligns this new seeing with the power of intent -a true invisible field of energy that exists in the universe.It takes eyes to see and ears to hear. The power of intent is right in front of us now just like the kingdom of God is. Will we see, know and use the power of intent when granted its presence. This is what CC is asking the new seer to be close with.ARE WE READY TO CONSIDER RADICALLY NEW VIEWS OF REALITY?
The Fabric of Reality//Peter Russell "From Science to God" http/twm.co.nz/prussell.htm#Fabric
"The current superparadigm assumes that space, time and matter constitute the basic framework of reality, and consciousness somehow arises from this reality.
The truth, it now appears, is the very opposite.
As far as the reality we experience is concerned - and this remember is the only reality we ever know- consciousness is primary.
Time, space and matter are secondary; they are aspects of the image of reality manifesting in the mind. They exist within consciousness; not the other way around.
Similar claims have often been made in spiritual teachings, particularly in Indian philosophy. Patanjali's Yoga Sutra's, for example, speak of the entire world as chitta vritti, "the modifications of mind-stuff." When physicists hear statements such as this, and take them to be referring to the physical world, they are understandably perplexed and perhaps dismissive.
But when we understand this to be a statement about the manifestation of our own experience, then we have to accept that in the final analysis they are correct:
Consciousness is the essence of everything-everything in the known Universe. It is the medium from which every aspect of our experience manifests. Every form and quality we ever experience in the world is an appearance within consciousness."
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Hey Ninth,
Here are a few of my favorite bible quotes that seem to "mesh" (no pun intended,.. not consciously anyway) with your post. And also one version of Grandmother Spider's Web. Also one of my favorites.
Grandmother Spider: Connecting All Things
The Spider Woman or Grandmother Spider legends are part of the creation mythology for several southwestern American Indian tribes, including the Hopi, Pueblo, and Navajo. One story says that in the beginning of time only two beings existed: Tawa, the Sun God, with the powers of all that is above; and Spider Woman, the Earth Goddess, with the powers of all that is below. The Sun God imagined the creatures of the earth, and Spider Woman turned these thoughts into living plants, animals, and people. She attached a thread of her spider silk to each person to provide access to her wisdom and protection
Ex 34:19 All that openeth the MATRIX is mine; and every firstling among thy cattle, whether ox or sheep, that is male.
The Goddess Speaks ...
THE WEB OF LIFE
by Spider - Taino Ti, author of
Moonlodge Dreams and Songs of Bleeding
THE WEB OF LIFE
by Taino Ti (I share the Spirit of the Earth with you)
When the Universe was still so dark that not even shadows could be seen in the night, Grandmother Spider sat in her web in the Sky World, waiting and watching. No one knows how old Grandmother Spider is, or how long she sat waiting for the Universal Mind to awaken. But, every Creature Being who has ever lived knows her song and dance as the weaver of the Web of Life.
From her web, Grandmother Spider observed the first thoughts as the Universal Mind awakened from the dream. Seven energy beings floated out from the shining light in the center of the Universal Mind and solidified into bright, shining stars who went out to take their places in the Sky World. Grandmother Spider took a very deep breath and softly began to sing her weaving song while she danced across the Sky. As she spun her thread, Grandmother Spider envisioned the Web of Life. Within moments, she had woven her web connecting the seven stars and creating the Spirit Doorway through which all of the rest of life would enter.
The seven stars reflected the spectrum of all colors within their glow. Dancing with the colored light, shadows came into being as the darkness took form. More thoughts flowed from the Universal Mind, entered through the Doorway of the Seven Stars, and took their places in the Sky World. These became more stars, suns and planets. Then, many other thoughts entered the Universe, each one taking a specific place according to the universal dream of harmony.
Each thought was a spirit essence who dreamed an individual dream for manifesting life. Grandmother Spider spun her web around each new energy being and the Universal Web of Life shimmered in the reflection of Great Mystery's light.
Singing her song and weaving the Web of Life, Grandmother Spider continued with her work. The Sky World filled with light and life as her creative process unfolded. As the stars, suns and planets prepared to give birth to their children, Grandmother Spider spun her cord even longer, so that all of the newly born could be included in the Web of Life. Grandmother Spider continues to weave the Web of Life throughout every cycle of creation.
All life everywhere in the Universe is connected by the Web of Life. We are not separate beings. We are each a part of the Great Mystery, manifesting as an individual awareness in a separate physical body, but sharing the same energy as all other life. The energy web is anchored within our center and is our connection to the Great Mystery.
Along with Grandmother Spider's web cord, we carry within our center our dream for living that includes a promise and a purpose. Before we came into the Earthwalk, we chose the gifts and talents that help us create the reality that we envisioned. We also chose the lessons and challenges that motivate our learning and growth.
Our dream for living carries a specific vibration of sound and color that guides our spirit essence in it's flight from the Universal Mind, through the Sacred Cave, and into the womb of our physical mother. During our Earthwalk, we live our choices and lessons, and develop our talents and gifts, as we meet each situation and challenge of our growth. We must remember our purpose and promise and focus our life in this direction if we are to be happy and fulfilled.
Grandmother Spider weaves the Web of Life around us when our spirit essence enters its physical body inside the womb of our mother. From feet to head, our spirit essence is woven together with our physical body as Grandmother Spider sings her weaving song to us.
When she completes her weaving, Grandmother Spider does not cut the cord, but leaves an energy trail with her weft thread that goes out from our center to connect with the next Creature Being that will enter the Web of Life.
The gift of Grandmother Spider is the personal energy web that we walk with throughout our entire life. This energy web allows our spirit essence to experience our senses, emotional feelings and physical pain and pleasures. This connection also allows our physical body to develop an intuitive perception of Universal Wisdom. Through the web, we can work with energy for creativity and healing. Our personal energy web maintains our connection to the Web of Life and the Great Mystery. This gift of Grandmother Spider insures that we are never alone, for through it we always share the love of All Our Relations.
Our energy web surrounds our physical body, enveloping it with a vibrating energy that is our personal rhythm. Our energy web is connected to our physical body through energy centers that are the communication channels between our physical body and spirit essence. Our mind is the link between body and spirit essence, interpreting and directing the flow of energy back and fourth. Breathing and movement enables our body to direct energy and our thoughts to affect our physical health. To live in comfort, we need to maintain a balance of body, mind and spirit within our personal energy web.
Grandmother Spider is always busy with her work, as the creation of life is happening at every moment. After connecting each Creature Being within her vibrating threads, Grandmother Spider goes on to the next, spinning out a continuous cord in her never ending dance. A Creature Being enters the Earthwalk, then a Plant Person, a Stone Person, a Water Person, a Four-Legged, a Two-Legged, and on and on. For each of these, Grandmother Spider weaves a personal energy web and extends her cord out from this Creature's center to continue on with the weaving of the Web of Life.
The Web of Life is a beautiful braid that holds the energy of all life together. Grandmother Spider's dance of spinning and weaving continues indefinitely, as new patterns within the web are being woven every moment when each new life enters the Earthwalk.
At the other end of Grandmother Spider's tapestry, the web is always unraveling, as every spirit essence travels back through the doorway of the Sacred Cave to the Spirit World when life is complete.
All life shares an equal place within the Web of Life. The gifts and contributions of each and every Creature Being are very important for the survival of MotherEarth. Each Creature Being, in following through with the performance of their specific life task, affects the welfare of all the other Creature Beings in the web. Without the benefit of even one Creature's work, the Web of Life would lack the energy of wholeness necessary for the circle of life's cycles to continue on with their rhythm.
© Spider 2000, an excerpt from Grandmother Spider And The Web Of Life
by Spider - Taino Ti, author of
Moonlodge Dreams and Songs of Bleeding
Song of Solomon 2:9
My beloved is like a roe or a young hart: behold, he standeth behind our wall, he looketh forth at the windows, showing himself through the lattice.
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It is awesome how human beings have an innate awareness of the unknown that pretty much translates into the same understanding of the greater unknown.
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Problema, in Classical Greek, means "that which offers itself to be seen" and the same meaning as objectum in Latin. It is really because we are not able to recognize the essential nature of that which offers itself to the gaze that it becomes what modern language calls "a problem." It is because we don't grasp the true nature of objects that we blame them for our difficulties.
http://www.omalpha.com/pat.html
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Hi I have been away for a week, just got back. I was catching up where we left off. I just wanted to clarify something I said that LoneWolf alluded to.
In this discussion Lex pretty much says he despises those who believe rigidly the teachings of Don Juan to Castaneda. LoneWolf
He was referring to this comment I made to Nemo....
I think more of Carlos than you know. It is the unquestioning parroting of his followers that I detest. Once you put the blinders on and hold his authority above your own sovereignty and then try to stifle the questioning of that authority by another you forfeit any claim to liberty. Lex
Now as you can see I did not make any comment about detesting anybody. It is a certain type of behavior I detest, in this case “unquestioning parroting” and the surrender of personal authority to those we deem worthy of our gift. Nemo and myself share a relationship outside of these forums and though we may fiercely disagree at times it in no way hinders us embracing one another.
There are many other types of behavior I detest too. It is important to separate behavior from personality.
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I don't mind you using what I said as an example at all although this is my response to your comments above. I did not know that my view differed from DJ's. Years ago knowing that my view differed would have been a point of contention--after all, I'd read CC's works multiple times and felt as though I knew them fairly well as a unit of work--AND would have been the first to claim strict adherence to him. I find myself in different times now because my awareness is at a different place. Jessicar
The download of knowledge that has been building within and which unfurled last week contributes to this response. When I used GPS as an example of dreaming gone mechanical and becoming a devastating diversion for seers, I include the tendency for us today to do the same thing with our mapping. The map becomes the finger which is pointing at the moon---and we claim we've arrived on the moon. So I lack the desire and, frankly, your finesse to respond with the same syntax. It no longer holds the same appeal that it used to for me.
Now, having said that, I also want to say that my download last week included a clarity about mapping--and that clarity involves the fact that as much as we want to collaborate on our mapping (as in comparing notes with CC and DJ), our mapping is unique to each one of us. If mapping for you includes comparing notes with DJ, so be it. For me that ended up feeling like I was chasing my own tail---around and around, thinking, feeling, and believing that I was seeing something different when I was seeing the same thing over and over again. I needed to remove myself from that particular GPS system and step out into the unknown in order to explore on my own. Doesn't mean those days of adhering to CC and DJ weren't fabulous---because they were---it does mean though that the path to the unknown for me is in stepping off any system, including my own, and standing at the doorstep of infinity, and facing each and every moment as though it has come to me in order to dance with me, and me alone. This opportunity is available to each one of us as soon as we drop the intensive mapping that is such a part of the quest (and that has stood us in such good stead for so many years!)and stand boldly at the door of the mystery, or the nagual. Jessicar
CC had the advantage of daily conversations back and forth with a man that had a completely different world view. A world view that not just different than his own in that he believed different things, but a world view that seemed diametrically opposed to the world view of man in general. DJ purposely pitted his world view against that of CC and man in general. What I admire about CC is that he was willing to engage in this struggle and then vulnerably relate his adventure to his audience.
You Jessicar perhaps had a taste of this struggle but.....
“For me that ended up feeling like I was chasing my own tail---around and around, thinking, feeling, and believing that I was seeing something different when I was seeing the same thing over and over again. I needed to remove myself...” Jessicar
And this is where many, not all, CC devotees find themselves. Some do as you did, and thank CC for a good ride and move on, some start yearning to meet a DJ type character that can truly initiate them into sorcery and get frustrated that the teacher is not appearing or in desperation attach themselves to anyone that seems credible in this regard. Some don’t get anywhere and get resentful and feel the need to get dismissive of things they really know nothing about. Some have major breakthroughs. etc.
“Doesn't mean those days of adhering to CC and DJ weren't fabulous---because they were---it does mean though that the path to the unknown for me is in stepping off any system, including my own, and standing at the doorstep of infinity, and facing each and every moment as though it has come to me in order to dance with me, and me alone.” Jessicar
What I have been pointing out in this thread is DJ’s insistence that the new seers differed from the old seers (not crazy about those terms BTW) in that the old seers confused the unknown and the unknowable. Now perhaps that is of no concern to you and judging by what you have said here it would appear that way.
We have the challenge and opportunity to face the unknown daily!!!
The unknowable is anything we’ve NOT experienced!!!
Death for example. By the time we get to death, it’s no longer the unknowable; it’s now become the unknown as we move into the realm of experience, and then immediately it becomes the known. That movement from unknowable, to unknown, to known, happens in a millisecond- Jessicar.
You are very emphatic about what you are expressing here and I judge by the exclamation points you fervently believe this.
The unknowable is anything we’ve NOT experienced!!! Jessicar
So is the unknown!!!
Death for example. By the time we get to death, it’s no longer the unknowable; Jessicar
If as you say Death is unknowable, then how can it become known? Death cannot be both unknowable and known, that just doesn’t make sense.
On the other hand we have the known and anything knowable. Anything knowable can also refer to what has not be known yet, which we would designate the unknown, that which is in the realm of the knowable.
“it does mean though that the path to the unknown for me is in stepping off any system, including my own, and standing at the doorstep of infinity, and facing each and every moment as though it has come to me in order to dance with me, and me alone. This opportunity is available to each one of us as soon as we drop the intensive mapping that is such a part of the quest” Jessicar
Yes, infinity and the unknown is like this and available. Its is available to old and new seers alike. “Intensive mapping” or what DJ simply called corroborating by experience for oneself is not a hindrance to the unknown in fact it is necessary otherwise you have have another's words to go by. However what I think you are referring to when you use the word mapping is PATH as in a specific spiritual path, or the way of the warrior or the path with heart or a specific discipline that has a specific goal. (Feel free to correct me if I have misrepresented you on this point  ). Now at a certain point a path can become a hindrance but only if it has achieved its goal at which point it becomes unnecessary. Too many get on a path but lack the devotion or discipline to see it through and abandon the path before its fruition often claiming the path doesn’t work or that they are superior to the path and those that introduced the path etc.
If we stand on the doorstep of infinity, inviting the dance, best to known the unknown from the unknowable. The old seers just daringly waltzed off into unknown oblivious to the unknowable. As DJ had much to say concerning this topic my purpose has been merely to bring this to the surface that we may give it our attention. Not everyone finds such things interesting or finds them too obscure to connect to.
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"And this is where many, not all, CC devotees find themselves. Some do as you did, and thank CC for a good ride and move on, some start yearning to meet a DJ type character that can truly initiate them into sorcery and get frustrated that the teacher is not appearing or in desperation attach themselves to anyone that seems credible in this regard. Some don’t get anywhere and get resentful and feel the need to get dismissive of things they really know nothing about. Some have major breakthroughs. etc." Lex
On forum discussions about CC, people often tiptoe around the actually sorcery that transpired. Why is that? Is it becasue they believe it didn't happen...that CC either exaggerated or was drug induced.
Or is it they believe it did happen to CC, but fear its not possibly going to ever happen to them, so best look for another 'path' not dependent on actually manifesting sorcery as described in the books. Like what you described Lex, a desperation at not finding a teacher and get discouraged to try.
Or yet another reason. ie. DJ didn't exist. It all took place in dreaming...etc
More than anything, the teachings of Castaneda introduce to the reader...Sorcery. I've experienced it so no longer need to be convinced. Now I see its about learning it myself. I can refer to his books now and then, they are useful, but the rest is to be known, by me, directly on my journey with fellow sorcerers/dreamers.
Some would say...that's not freedom though. I say why not? Why can't you have both sorcery and freedom together? Freedom allows for anything under the sun. Even no sun.
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Nu Lang wrote:
"And this is where many, not all, CC devotees find themselves. Some do as you did, and thank CC for a good ride and move on, some start yearning to meet a DJ type character that can truly initiate them into sorcery and get frustrated that the teacher is not appearing or in desperation attach themselves to anyone that seems credible in this regard. Some don’t get anywhere and get resentful and feel the need to get dismissive of things they really know nothing about. Some have major breakthroughs. etc." Lex
On forum discussions about CC, people often tiptoe around the actually sorcery that transpired. Why is that? Is it becasue they believe it didn't happen...that CC either exaggerated or was drug induced.
Or is it they believe it did happen to CC, but fear its not possibly going to ever happen to them, so best look for another 'path' not dependent on actually manifesting sorcery as described in the books. Like what you described Lex, a desperation at not finding a teacher and get discouraged to try.
Or yet another reason. ie. DJ didn't exist. It all took place in dreaming...etc
More than anything, the teachings of Castaneda introduce to the reader...Sorcery. I've experienced it so no longer need to be convinced. Now I see its about learning it myself. I can refer to his books now and then, they are useful, but the rest is to be known, by me, directly on my journey with fellow sorcerers/dreamers.
Some would say...that's not freedom though. I say why not? Why can't you have both sorcery and freedom together? Freedom allows for anything under the sun. Even no sun.
Hi Lex and Nu Lang,
I read Nu Lang's post before going to bed last night.
I just woke up with some thoughts about this old vs new seer thing and what Nu Lang wrote about freedom. It also relates to what Scout 1 posted about intent in the thread How To Become a New Seer.
It really all adds up to what Don Juan called predilection. A path with heart. Or maybe what some refer to as a "calling."
In Don Juan's teachings there were always these opposing ideas tonal, nagual, ..inside and outside the bubble of awareness,...known and unknown,..first and second attention etc.,
Sorcerer.... Man of Knowledge
Old seer.... New seer
Dreaming... Seeing
In the bible there are parallels in the "Gifts of the Spirit". There are many but I will list a few to illustrate my point.
Miracles, Healing,... Wisdom, Understanding, Visions, Faith, Discerning of spirits, Prophecy.
All of the gifts,.... Faith, Hope, Charity
In the study of the Tree of Life (the Qabalah) there are also parallels in how the person makes use of the Tree.
Magician,.... Mystic
Invoking angels, archangels Rising on the planes, Becoming "one with" a Sephirah,
and/or demons and godnames, etc. Rising on the Middle Pillar.
for the purpose of changing something. Becoming "one with" God.
Become "one with" a Sephirah in order to change
something in matter.
The lines I have drawn are not hard and fast by any means, These things bleed one into another.
But we are drawn to the left side or the right side by our own predilections,..our path with heart.
From what I see the left side has more to do with changing things and phenomena. The things changed are impermanent. We can change our current situation whether that be our dreams or making a protection against a psychic assault, etc. Or save a life by healing. But that dream will fade our psychic assault is temporary and so is this body we are in,..we will all die, eventually. So, even a miracle healing is temporary.
The thing changed on the left side are temporary in that they are the physical and astral planes that are changed.
From what I see on the right side list has more to do with "knowing and awareness." These are, for the most part, permanent changes in our consciousness. At least that is the goal. That goal is "open ended." In other words there is no end to the journey it encompasses.
Either side can be approached in either a selfless or selfish manner. But on the right side you will reach a point where you will either change your motivation or be destroyed if that motivation is wrong. Or you will go no further.
On the left side the goal seems to be to sneak past the Eagle and gain a few years to your life.
The right ide is open ended, as I said.
Many of us were drawn to the Don Juan stories because of the mystery and phenomena. But it seemed clear from early on that Don Juan expected Carlos to do better than getting caught up in the sorcerer's world.
But then, that is the freedom we have. We do what we want to do. We seek what our heart tells us to.
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Lex:
We have the challenge and opportunity to face the unknown daily!!!
The unknowable is anything we’ve NOT experienced!!!
Death
for example. By the time we get to death, it’s no longer the
unknowable; it’s now become the unknown as we move into the realm of
experience, and then immediately it becomes the known. That movement
from unknowable, to unknown, to known, happens in a millisecond-
Jessicar.
You are very emphatic about what you are expressing here and I judge by the exclamation points you fervently believe this.
The unknowable is anything we’ve NOT experienced!!! Jessicar
So is the unknown!!!
Death for example. By the time we get to death, it’s no longer the unknowable; Jessicar
If
as you say Death is unknowable, then how can it become known? Death
cannot be both unknowable and known, that just doesn’t make sense.
On
the other hand we have the known and anything knowable. Anything
knowable can also refer to what has not be known yet, which we would
designate the unknown, that which is in the realm of the knowable.
Yes, I was emphatic, you're right. I was emphatic because suddenly it became clear to me that an error that is often made with the known, the unknown, and the unknowable is to think of them linearly--as though one comes after the other and never out of order. Let me see if I can explain it again in a clearer manner.
By the way, I've been out of the country for the past few months---hence, my CC books are unavailable to me. I like that that is the case because if I was at home, I would be tempted to enter this conversation with underlining in hand---something I've been trying to say all along becomes a trap against standing on the edge of the nagual staring at infinity itself. I was recently at a conference where there were "rules" placed on the board before discussion started. One of the "rules" was "No Pet Rocks"; I loved that! How often do we engage in a discussion and too readily pull out the "old saw" and begin with our well worn (CC) agenda. Sometimes the act of quoting (anyone) feels like a pet rock to me.
So my moment of epiphany was about how the known, unknown, and unknowable swirl around us all of the time---they're not a linear progression, as in first we know, then move into the unknown, and the unknowable is always out in front of us, never quite arrived upon. My example was death. None of us have experienced death, period, so for us it is unknowable. Sure, there's a metaphoric and symbolic death but none of us has permanently left our bodies and no longer reside in them. We only talk about death--and we talk and talk until we feel as though we know. But we don't--we can only move from the known to the unknown regarding death at the moment we enter into death itself. And the moment we've crossed over into death, we enter the unknowable--a state that can only be experienced at the very moment it occurs. The unknowable only really lasts a millisecond because then it becomes the known. I see the unknown as a process--a process of becomeing the known; it's more permeable than the unknowable.
Here's a different example. I know only a little about ETs--I've had a brief encounter here and there, a little known, a lot unknown. I consider what they know about me (or the human race) as the unknowable. Until, and if I'm abducted by them, (i.e. have further experience with them) their knowledge of me is completely out of my purview to even surmise about.
I was lying in bed this morning thinking of the three "knowings" as being all the same thing---except in different states, much like water is liquid, gas, and solid. Seems we've concretized them into discreet categories as though they're dangerous to confuse. Yes, I see the danger in this--if I cross over into death of the body, I'd be hard pressed to return to the unknown. The old seers crossed over into immortality, and didn't realize there was no turning back. What I was expressing was the immediacy of all three states, they're non-linearity, and the potential for permeability between them--with the exception of the unknowable, which can lend itself to irreversibility.
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Ah, now we come to the question...what can sorcery be used for? Is it a 'negative' or is it neutral? Can one combine the mystic and the magician, use magic to move towards mystic expereinces?
I remember this discussion a while back....
ninth octave wrote:The New Seers is a great new name, Lone Wolf
For real, what does the new seer signify as opposed to the old seer?
Nagual LoneWolf wrote:The old seers were more into achieving power both dark and light, they enlisted the inorganics and some even became tenants and found ways to "live forever". The new seers want to make the knowledge more mainstream and enlighten humanity with dreaming and shifts. The new seers are the legacy of Castaneda and use his insights and techniques to explore this vastness we call infinity.
Neither the old seer or new seer is in any way shape or form, an average men. What separates the average men from the new seers of today?
"The new seers are the legacy of Castaneda and use his insights and techniques to explore this vastness we call infinity."
I get the feeling that some in this thread may not agree with this definition of new seer. If such is the case, then what is Castaneda's legacy supposed to help us do?
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"I must go on boasting. Although there is nothing to be gained. I will go on to visions and revelations from the Lord. I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body I do not know-God knows. And I know that man-whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows- was caught up to paradise. He heard inexpressible things, things that man is not permitted to tell."
Things that man is not permitted to tell. Why is this unknowable kept hidden?
When we die God begins.
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"I've mentioned to you that sorcery is something like entering a dead-end street," he replied. "What I meant was that sorcery practices have no intrinsic value. Their worth is indirect, for their real function is to make the assemblage point shift by making the first attention release its control on that point.”
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Nagual LoneWolf wrote:The old seers were more into achieving power both dark and light, they enlisted the inorganics and some even became tenants and found ways to "live forever". The new seers want to make the knowledge more mainstream and enlighten humanity with dreaming and shifts. The new seers are the legacy of Castaneda and use his insights and techniques to explore this vastness we call infinity.
Neither the old seer or new seer is in any way shape or form, an average men. What separates the average men from the new seers of today?
"The new seers are the legacy of Castaneda and use his insights and techniques to explore this vastness we call infinity."
I get the feeling that some in this thread may not agree with this definition of new seer. If such is the case, then what is Castaneda's legacy supposed to help us do?
FWIW, I completely agree with this.
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Tales of Power-
“Sorcerers have learned after generations of using power plants to account in their views for everything that is accountable about them. I would say that sorcerers, by using their will, have succeeded in enlarging their views of the world. My teacher and benefactor were the clearest examples of that. They were men of great power, but they were not men of knowledge. They never broke the bounds of their enormous views and thus they never arrived at the totality of themselves, yet they knew about it. It wasn’t that they lived aberrant lives, claiming things beyond their reach; they knew that they had missed the boat and that only at their death would the total mystery be revealed to them. Sorcery had given them only a glimpse but never the real means to get to that evasive totality of oneself.”
This is an interesting quote. Very subtle in distinguishing the difference DJ speaks about here. He says these men knew they missed the boat and only at their death would the total mystery be revealed to them. That they didn't claim things beyond their reach, and were men of great power but not men of knowledge. Sounds to me like they were practical sorcerers who mapped everything they were able to know about but then came to a point they were stuck and could not proceed further, but realized this at the same time, due to their pragmatism, realistic view.
So they helped pave the way for the new seers, didn't they? I don't believe that the new seers then rejected sorcery. Not by a long shot...simply the new seers saw that sorcery alone was not enough, and that to die a symbolic death is what the practical sorcerers had failed to do during their lifetimes.
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"If as you say Death is unknowable , then how can it become known?" Lex
I believe this already happened by the power of God called the resurrection of his Son, Jesus.
"Death cannot be both unknowable and known, that just doesn't make sense." Lex
How then do you explain those walking avatars in the Himalayas of India?
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